Sampletron and Mellotron MkII sounds?

[tronholic]

Hello,

I prefer sound of Mellotron MkII to sound of other Mellotron models(M300,M400,MkV,MkVI,MkVII).The specific valve preamp,different tapeheads, mechanics and tape eq contribute to classic sound.
So here's a few question regarding Sampletron and Mellotron MkII sounds.

Were all MkII sounds sampled from actual Mellotron MkII,or from other Mellotrons like MkV once owned by Joni Mitchell?

Were all MkII's lead sounds sampled?If not,which ones were?
There are some MkII sounds that are not widely available like
'French Accordion' and 'Harpsichord' ,and you cannot have enough
of those '3Violins' patches coming from actual MkII.

Were at least some of Mellotron MkII's rhythm and fill tapes sampled
('Swinging Flutes' fill tape would be nice)?

Were all Mellotron MkII sounds sampled with their attacks/key clicks intact?

Were all MkII sounds sampled to their original lengths without looping?

Were tape endings preserved?

Were all sounds sampled chromatically(35 notes for each manual in MkII)?

Thank you!

[taijiguy]

Hey tronholic, you are a Tron snob! You know too much about Trons! Yeah, there's a big difference between the sound of the MkI/II 3 Violins on a MkI/II/FX and the same tapes on an M400. I'm looking forward to hearing them on an M4000 along with all the newly recorded sounds.

[tronholic]

Hello again,

Hi taijiguy,thanks for your witty comments and free M400 samples as well!
I guess a true tron snob would not accept samples at all.It could be that tron snobbism is a more extreme version of tronholism.I don't have medical training,so I can't give firm diagnoses.

I haven't heard M4000s either,so I can't comment how they sound.Are you by any chance one of those who ordered M4000?

The Fx Consoles are quite different as they were originally commission works for BBC and had to be reconstructed to match up their broadcasting standards.

Speaking of Mellotron models,there is a SampleTron introduction video that features various Mellotron,Chamberlin etc. pictures.
I think I saw Alain Celos' Mellotron MkII couple of times during the video.So hope still lives on.

Would somebody be kind and post preset names from 'Mellotron M300 and Mark II' folder in SampleTron?Are there any nonlooped sounds in that folder?
I'll probably buy this thing anyway,but I think it is better be safe than sorry.

Thank you and best wishes!:)

[taijiguy]

Hi tronholic,

Hope you find the M400 samples useful.

I'll admit to being a Tron snob, but it was samples that re-ignited my interest enough to re-purchase my old M400. Still, I gobble up all the Tron samples I can find: Pinder CD, Crime Sounds, M-Tron and a few others. Problem with most samples is they usually have some meaningless name instead of the correct one, so it's difficult to tell what you're getting. One nice thing about samples is that you can layer them and get sound combos that you can't get with a real Tron.

I saw mention of the SampleTron video somewhere. I want to take a look just out of curiosity. I'm still thinking about the Squids Tron Collection V1 & V2. Same sounds as SampleTron, but not looped. Looping is sacrilege!!

I haven't ordered an M4000, but I did order an M5000. Hopefully it'll be completed before the end of the year.

[tronholic]

Hi,

If I have understood correctly,there are some Mellotron MkII sounds in SampleTron that Squids Tron Collection V1 doesn't have.

There are three SampleTron videos on Youtube.
The black Mellotron MkII appeared couple of times during the introduction video(serial number 220),but that doesn't mean that it was the one that got sampled for the SampleTron.

The videos show some preset names that have letter 'L'(looped?) and same presets without it.Was the Macro control(Sus) in SampleTron implemented in a way that at least some of the raw samples are non looped and the control adjusts the looping point within samples?

There are some things that can potentially ruin Mellotron samples.
Sample stretching ruins the uniqueness of each individual note and can introduce various anomalities.Looping ruins the dynamics and uniqueness of each individual note.Pitch correction/tuning makes Mellotron sounds even more static and stiff.Denoising(hum and hiss removal) can thin the sound and introduce anomalities like filter resonance,which are amplified even further by dynamic processors and EQ's.

I happen to like attacks in various MkII sounds.They resonate nicely when run through various cabinets.This is something that is lacking in many sample sets.The attacks/key clicks haven't been sampled or they're filtered/edited.

It would actually be nice to have a sample set that would allow more dynamic playing.A few layers of same pitch samples and ability to move the starting point within samples should do it.

But let's not forget that if the sounds fit and serve the artistic idea,they're useful.

Best wishes

[Squids]

I am in the middle of a session (cool one in fact- recreated the drums of classic Bowie records). So I can't take the time to answer everything but I will say this. Original endings not preserved in SampleTron (but are in Squids Tron Collection). Some genuine MK2 samples in there BUT I didn't sample the rhythms unfortunately of the MK2. However I have the Chamberlin Music Master rhythms which are very similar.

Short version here... there's PLENTY in SampleTron for Tron lovers to be worth the money. PLENTY. But that doesn't mean there isn't more tron stuff out there to also want... like the stuff you mentioned. Plus I STILL have a bunch of rare tron sounds that are still on tapes that I have to transfer. It's an on-going love really. But you have a ton of stuff we've done so far.

[taijiguy]

Hi,

If I have understood correctly,there are some Mellotron MkII sounds in SampleTron that Squids Tron Collection V1 doesn't have.

I couldn't say for sure, but it's likely that there are several MkII sounds that haven't been sampled. At least, no one else has yet.

There are three SampleTron videos on Youtube.
The black Mellotron MkII appeared couple of times during the introduction video(serial number 220),but that doesn't mean that it was the one that got sampled for the SampleTron.

You're probably right. I don't recognize the black MkII, but the pair of M400's are #256 and #1671:

http://egrefin.free.fr/images/mellotron/M400/M400-1.jpg

The videos show some preset names that have letter 'L'(looped?) and same presets without it.Was the Macro control(Sus) in SampleTron implemented in a way that at least some of the raw samples are non looped and the control adjusts the looping point within samples?

From what I've read, probably not. But the Squids Tron Collections are alleged to contain authentic unlooped samples.

There are some things that can potentially ruin Mellotron samples. Sample stretching ruins the uniqueness of each individual note and can introduce various anomalities. Looping ruins the dynamics and uniqueness of each individual note.Pitch correction/tuning makes Mellotron sounds even more static and stiff.Denoising(hum and hiss removal) can thin the sound and introduce anomalities like filter resonance,which are amplified even further by dynamic processors and EQ's.

This is a great technical description of how to ruin Tron samples. Now I know from a technical perspective why processed Tron samples don't sound as good as unprocessed samples. Besides, you can always add processing to samples yourself, but you can't remove someone else's processing.

I happen to like attacks in various MkII sounds.They resonate nicely when run through various cabinets.This is something that is lacking in many sample sets.The attacks/key clicks haven't been sampled or they're filtered/edited.

Same here; especially the brass sounds like MkII Trombone, MkII Trumpet and MkII Combined Brass.

It would actually be nice to have a sample set that would allow more dynamic playing.A few layers of same pitch samples and ability to move the starting point within samples should do it.

For a long time I've wished that Streetly Electronics would release a sample set that included these options, as well as the new recordings such as Plucked Piano, Cor Anglais/Oboe Split and Chamber Woodwinds. As the creators of the Mellotron, they, more than anyone else, understand the inner workings of the instrument.

But let's not forget that if the sounds fit and serve the artistic idea,they're useful.

Agreed.

[Squids]

There is very little processing if ANY most of the time. The main reason for that is that you can process it in real time yourself with the lovely fx in the ST engine (or with your favorite plugs or outboard gear). If you want the more purist approach I think Squids Tron may be the way to go. However, SampleTron is a lot of fun and has many samples that Squids Tron doesn't have so... both are still less than the cost of a Mellotron. Quite a lot less. I just recently bought one of my old ones back. The infamous Smellotron that used to belong to Bobby Sherman.

Anyway, this is one of the reasons to also consider the M-Tron stuff. They have different samples. There are a bunch that have also never been released as samples but even better there are some that have never been released at ALL. I know someone who has Mellotron tapes that were done by Mellotron at one time and the sounds were BARELY released (like some artists such as Eric Carmen had them in the Raspberries but not that many). I have been meaning to get those transfered. He has the masters. Plus I met a guy named Sandy who worked for Harry Chamberlin and he gave me a BUNCH of tapes including outtakes and other things that were never released. So I do have some one of a kind things... some of it may actually be in Squids Tron and SampleTron. But, I know I have more. But we'll probably release stuff ala carte if there's not enough to put in a whole new product... or add it as an update later. Not sure. But I don't mind releasing it. Just takes time to go through it all and the biggest hassle is to dupe it. That's why when I got to dupe some stuff with the original Ampex machine at Michael Penn's studio with Patrick Warren it was sounding incredible. That said, it also sounds different from tron to tron the way the attacks are with the mechanisms... you could hear the same basic samples through a variety of different models and it will sound different. Although nothing is "ruined" if it still sounds good in the end anyway. I agree there. But anyway if you're a MAJOR MAJOR purist then just go buy a real one. If you want to use this on your music and dig through its wonderful odd variety of sounds then by all means don't miss out on SampleTron! Products like this don't come around so often.

[tronholic]

Hi,

Squids,it was nice to hear from you!
Thank you for donating your time!
It all starts to be more clear now.

To taijiguy:
You can find the black "Melly" from the Candor Chasma's site.
It is clear that some of the Mellotrons on his site are the same as on the video like you've hinted already.

I'll propably get the SampleTron.Being a tronholic means that at some point you end up having all the sample sets that are available.There's so much variety between sound sets and particular machines that got sampled for each collection.

I have the original M-Tron,which I got early on.I have all additional add-on packs as well.

Here's a hint:
The current M-audio version has three sounds that are missing from the original version,but the original version has 'Violins2' patch that was omitted later on(more attacks,more dropouts, more noise and hum,a bit thicker sound and the three topmost notes missing).

The upcoming M-Tron Pro has more features and sounds and they have remastered some of the old sounds at the Abbey Road.

I don't have Mike Pinder CD-ROM,which is sometimes quoted as a "purist" sample set.I didn't have suitable sampler when it was still distributed by the East West 11 or so years ago.I have only heard some demos provided by the former British music production magazine,The Mix.

The Mellotron CD-ROM is a lowresolution set(22,05kHz).It is also quite expensive and even more so after the custom duties and taxes are added(downside of living across the Pond).
The MkII Vibes patch should sound cleaner than Vibes patch on M-Tron.I don't know how those other MkII patches sound.The Squids Tron and the SampleTron both feature Mellotron Vibes patches as well.

It was wonderful to hear some inside information from you Squids.
Aah,the Smellotron and all that...,must have been nice to clean.
I guess some form of "Tron Bundle" is coming from the Sonic Reality,or so I've heard.Maybe a large portion of your Tron treasures on a giant bundle?

See ya!

[taijiguy]

Also a thanks from me to you Squids, for the information. I don't think I would care for the SampleTron, but the Squids Tron sounds more to my liking, although I'll have to wait a bit. After the SampleTank group buy (thanks for that; I'm having a fun, entertaining time ) and just ordering a 4th cabinet for my modular synth AND buying a new washer and dryer, I'm about tapped out.

I do wish that the sound demos of all producers of Tron samples would provide dry demos. It's the only to tell how they really sound, even though the in-context demos sound more impressive.

tronaholic, I also appreciate the variety of the same sounds from different machines. While I like the King Crimsony 3 Violins sound of the tube preamp in the MkII, I really like the sound of Mike Pinder's modified MkII's with the solid state preamps. Then there's the difference between the ear-shattering MkII 3 Violins and the sweeter M400 3 Violins.

You're right about the Pinder CD. The samples are at 1/2 CD quality. The MkII 3 Violins sounds very thin. But even at the lower sample rate, some sound very good. The Chamberlin samples sound better than the Mellotron samples. Some of the Mellotron samples have starts that kind of pop. You really have to ride the volume pedal to make them work. I wish Mellotron Archives would finish their 2nd CD, but I'll bet they're scrambling to catch up to Streetly's M4000.

The M-Tron is pretty good, especially the last couple of libraries. But some of the sounds are a little muddy. Then there are the redundancies like the M300A Two Violins, where one is better than the other. Someday I hope to go through the samples folder and weed out the poorer quality duplicates.

[tronholic]

Hello,

Like you taijiguy,I'm also fan of that Moody Blues 3Violins sound.
More compressed sound and no highend lift like on valve preamps,but lift on bass and lower mids.Highend has tone that I'd call "silver shine".Definitely not that shrilling highend that stock MkII's had.
I don't know anybody who would have samples taken from these modified machines.Apparently some of them are lost forever.Frank has one of those machines though.

Cheers

[Squids]

One of the Chamberlins I sampled (and used to own) was Mike Pinder's M4! He used it on tour. It is the black tolexed one. I sold it because it was falling apart. I think it is in Japan now in some museum. I sold Tom Waits his Chamberlin (and sampled that too) and Neil Finn his (and sampled that for Crowded House to use live as well as their Optigan "Da Dai Da Dai Da" Chocolate Cake and such). A lot of the sounds on Together Alone are my samples (maybe all of the keyboard sounds possibly with the exception of a few. I was also friends with Mark Hart who I worked with on Ringo and Sam Phillips albums at the time).

I also sampled trons and Optigans for Smashing Pumpkins for the Adore record. So a lot of the samples in Squids Tron and SampleTron are the same ones used on various records if that is of interest. But there are a lot of albums I've learned used Squids Tron that I had no idea! I thought they used a Chamberlin or Mellotron only to find out it was our library. Although a couple artists I said I wouldn't say... so they could at least pretend it was real I suppose. Haha. Even someone like Patrick Warren will use samples though too because it is so much more reliable especially for live.

I like that Pinder CD's material but I wish it was 44.1. You can hear aliasing in the high end if the sample rate is lower than 44.1 and I never sample below that rate... and that's even if you're sampling something with a frequency response that tops out below 10K. So? CD quality is the min for me, the resolution of how its RATE of sampling... it's important IMO.

[monday]

have you ever come across samples of these tronhlic? would love to hear

Were at least some of Mellotron MkII's rhythm and fill tapes sampled
('Swinging Flutes' fill tape would be nice)?

[tronholic]

Hi,

M-Tron contains these rhythm tapes and fills:
Bossa Nova
Dixieland
Vienneze Waltz
Foxtrot
Slow Foxtrot
Samba
Slow Waltz
Accordion Bass Notes/Accordion Chords
Cello and Violins Moving Chords

The original Mellotron CD-ROM from the Mellotron Archives
contains these rhythm and fill tapes(sampled at 22.05kHz resolution):
Foxtrot/Sax Phrases
Dixie Land/Trombone
Cha Cha/Swinging Flutes
Bungalow Bill Guitar intro (Spanish Guitar)
Moving Bass/Cello and Violin Chords (block chords)
Bossa Nova/Cello and Violins Moving Chords

The upcoming Mellotron CD-ROM II from the Mellotron Archives
will contain these(hopefully now at 44.1kHz?):
Viennese Waltz/Marimba Tremolo
Slow Waltz/Celeste
Rhumba/Guitar
Slow Foxtrot/Woodwinds
Quickstep/Saxophone
Bolero/3 Clarinets
Samba/6/8 Tempo in F
Fast Jazz Bass/Twist in C

So even after getting M-Tron and both Mellotron Archive CD-ROMs you
would not have these:
Church Organ/Church Organ
Reverberated Organ/Reverberated Organ
Slow Jazz Bass
Blues Beat Rhythm in F
Cuban/Afro Cuban
Tango/Piano Chords

Where you can you hear these rhythms and fills then?Here's a few examples:

I guess the most famous use of prerecorded Mellotron rhythm tape is the intro
of 'The Continuing Story of Bungalow Bill' by the Beatles(on White Album).That classical Spanish Guitar run.

The Kinks used 'Swinging Flutes' fill tape on 'Phenomenal Cat' (on The Kinks Are the Village Green Preservation Society)and 'Saxophone' fill on 'Berkeley Mews' (on Four More Respected Gentlemen).

King Crimson used to play live improvisation and they used
Samba,Rhumba,Tango/Piano Chords etc. on those sessions.

Lot of hiphop guys use these rhythm tapes nowadays.I can't say specifically who and on which track (my record collection is mainly from the 60s and 70s).

Apples in Stereo has used some of the rhythm tapes on their album 'New Magnetic Wonder'.

MkI's had their own selection of rhythms/fills and FX tapes
and apparently there were different rhythms for MkII's as well.


Best wishes

[Squids]

Cool info. I've always been more on the Chamberlin side when it comes to odd rhythms. But I never owned a Mk1 or Mk2 myself so that's why. I've owned about 6 or 7 Chamberlins. I should have kept at least one though... an M1 maybe. I did LOVE that Music Master though. The keys were so spongey!

Looking forward to the next Mellotron CD and I do hope it is 44.1 this time. I bet it will be. Maybe he'll re-release the other stuff in 44.1 as well. He might as well I think. Anyway, it's all different. Even if it is of the same material originally it will STILL sound different from recording to recording and depending on the shape of the tron... oddly enough sometimes you want it to sound a little bit bad too... like out of alignment or warbly. I do anyway sometimes.

Speaking of that, there are tons of OTHER tron-related things in SampleTron though. It's not supposed to just be a Mellotron replica or anything. It's EVERYTHING tronish. Tapes, optical and even a Stylophone (ironically Ken Scott brought one into the studio this morning for fun... I should ask him about the White Album Mellotron since he recorded it! Isn't that bizarre that right now I am in the studio with him? Got any questions?).

But anyway if you like tape rhythms then the Powerhouse 8-track drum machine (that was sold by Sound Sales who had Mellotron for a while) is really cool! BPMs drift but that's part of the fun! Roger Manning from the band Jellyfish helped me dupe those over. I still have some of the tapes but he bought my Powerhouse and a bunch of other things. His partner in the Moog Cookbook, Brian Kehew (also an expert on trons and the person I know who has a Mk2.... maybe even Tony Bank's actually. I have to ask him about that. Maybe not. He used to have a studio called Audities with David Kean- the person who did the Mellotron CD and does tapes etc.) anyway Brian is friends with Ken and is supposed to stop by. If you haven't checked it out Brian has an INCREDIBLE book that is a must-have. Mind blowingly cool: www.recordingthebeatles.com Check it out! Great present to give or get someone.