Daft Punk/Justice scales...

[Brad Tyler]

hi peeps!
i wonder if anyone here can help. i have been studying a couple of tracks by daft punk and justice (prime time of your life, and d.a.n.c.e). and in both cases i am a little bit baffled by the scales used. this is because, in both tracks, notes are used that don't fit within normal major, minor scales which leads me to ask, what scales are they using? in the prime time of your life, if you take the main melody you end up using the following notes:

A, Fs, F, D, D, D, E, E, A. (obviously, in that scale there are only semitone steps between 3 of the notes used, E, F and Fs. its this that is confusing me).


the same thing happens in Justice's D.A.N.C.E (sorry about the lame way i'm putting the melody, but if you listen to the track and time it accordingly it works ok) lol

D, D, F, C, C, G, D, F, F, G, G, B, B, F, Bb, Bb, F, G, A, A.

so the notes used (from left to right) are:

G, A, Bb, B, C, D, F. (clearly having semitone steps between 4 of the notes, A, Bb, B and D).

i would really love to know what the theory is behind these melodies and what scales are being used. i'm guessing that maybe they are going off scale, for effect, but i'm not entirely sure.

here are the 2 tracks:

(daft punk, prime time of your life)

(justice d.a.n.c.e)

this one may be a lot easier to hear as its an accoustic version done by get cape wear cape, fly



thank you in advance for any help.

[sockofgold]

I seriously doubt Daft Punk is thinking about or even know what scale they are using.

Don't get too wrapped in "scales," especially when dealing with electronic music. I think it is very common for people to just punch at the keys until they come across something they like, particularly in the case of something like Prime Time of Your Life, where the notes are just single notes dropped every second or so. You're really getting yourself into a line of thinking that will not be very beneficial to you.

[Brad Tyler]

I seriously doubt Daft Punk is thinking about or even know what scale they are using.
.

you gotta be joking?! daft punk are top of their game, having been in bands, thomas bangalter grew up round music (his dad produced hits like D. I, S, C, O back in the day), i know they def play guitar, so i'm pretty sure they know what scale etc they are using. but i hear what you are saying, about just going with what sounds right, but i like to know when i'm making a track, exactly where i am and what i'm doing, so i think going off key would only wind up confusing me (when trying to harmonise etc) or end up sounding shit lol.

i have noticed a scale in logics pitch corrcetion plug in has, called the major add b7 scale, this would use an extra note (making it 9) an would mean that the extra semi-tone steps could be accounted for, i guess it is just confusing me some what. if anyone does have any other theories on this, its be greatly appreciated thanks.

[sockofgold]

Yeah, I'm not saying they don't know scales. It's kind of hard not to. Hit all the white keys, and you've got C Major/A Minor. I'm just saying they probably don't care. It's all speculation anyway. I have no evidence to back up either statement.

I just think that the only people who consciously think about scales when they write are Bach and Yngwie Malmsteen. Not that there's anything wrong with Bach.

There are sooo many "scales" in existence, but so many of them are just weird names thrown on strange strings of notes. Essentially, 90% of what you hear is just a major scale from one key played in a different key, i.e. "modes". Learn your modes, and you'll be set with an outrageously diverse musical palette, and you will probably never think about "what scale is that" again.

Having said that, I could probably use a little brushing up myself, although, when I am writing on the keyboard, I do prefer the trial and error method. I would rather not know what's going on, but that's just me.

[tatman6006]

I love Daft Punk as much as the next guy and all... but I think a lot of people give them a lot of credit for doing much of what they have taken from others... I'd have to say that sockofgold is probably right in this case. Have you seen this video?



I thought "Discovery" was an absolute work of neo-disco genius when it came out... and then someone ruined the illusion that I had where these two guys conjured up all of the pieces on that album. Check the video.

[Download SOphist]

I just think that the only people who consciously think about scales when they write are Bach and Yngwie Malmsteen. Not that there's anything wrong with Bach.

[sockofgold]

I love Daft Punk as much as the next guy and all... but I think a lot of people give them a lot of credit for doing much of what they have taken from others... I'd have to say that sockofgold is probably right in this case. Have you seen this video?



I thought "Discovery" was an absolute work of neo-disco genius when it came out... and then someone ruined the illusion that I had where these two guys conjured up all of the pieces on that album. Check the video.

Yep. But there are some nice compositions on Discovery as well. Something About Us, Short Circuit, Veridis Quo, Voyager. I assume there are no samples there, and those are all GREAT songs.

Even with all the sampling, Discovery is still probably my all-time favorite electronic album, if for no more reason than those four songs.

[Jokari]

It's not about the scales, it's about the chords.

Take the Daft Punk example: the first chord is an A minor, but the next note is an F# which does not belong to A minor so obviously there is something going on: we're borrowing a chord from A major, the D major chord. Moving from minor to major kinda "opens up" the mood, but not in an obvious way since the bass is the third of the chord and not the root, giving it a much darker feeling. And then the next note is an F: we're back to A minor (F major chord), the chord itself is stable but since we're just coming back from A major it brings about quite a bit of tension. The tension is resolved by the last two chords, D minor and E minor who stay reassuringly within A minor and form a very simple subdominant-dominant-tonic cadence.

So if you are interested in the "why" I agree with sockofgold that esoteric knowledge of scales won't get you anywhere (except as a starting point to try new stuff), but a basic understanding of harmony can go a long way


Also, I'm talking about the melody in context with the rest of the song: if you're talking about the very beginning of the song, it sounds quite different because your brain is free to think up other chords that match the melody. It actually sounds more like A major with the F# belonging to an F# minor chord and the F borrowed from A minor -- although it's much more ambiguous than that, like 5th chords in rock.

[Brad Tyler]

It's not about the scales, it's about the chords.

Take the Daft Punk example: the first chord is an A minor, but the next note is an F# which does not belong to A minor so obviously there is something going on: we're borrowing a chord from A major, the D major chord. Moving from minor to major kinda "opens up" the mood, but not in an obvious way since the bass is the third of the chord and not the root, giving it a much darker feeling. And then the next note is an F: we're back to A minor (F major chord), the chord itself is stable but since we're just coming back from A major it brings about quite a bit of tension. The tension is resolved by the last two chords, D minor and E minor who stay reassuringly within A minor and form a very simple subdominant-dominant-tonic cadence.

So if you are interested in the "why" I agree with sockofgold that esoteric knowledge of scales won't get you anywhere (except as a starting point to try new stuff), but a basic understanding of harmony can go a long way


Also, I'm talking about the melody in context with the rest of the song: if you're talking about the very beginning of the song, it sounds quite different because your brain is free to think up other chords that match the melody. It actually sounds more like A major with the F# belonging to an F# minor chord and the F borrowed from A minor -- although it's much more ambiguous than that, like 5th chords in rock.

thanks a lot for this help and saying what chords etc are being played. i understand it a bit more now. the only thing that confuses me is in relation to scale and harmony. i have always wondered about the relationship between the two, as i always try to harmonise using chords that only contain notes that are in the same key as the song. but as i am finding this seems to be quite limiting and doesn't allow a great deal of excitement in tracks. i think i am finding it hard to know when to use notes/chords that are not in the songs key, without it just sounding like i'm playing off-key. for example, you mention the fact that the 2nd note in that daft punk track is Fs, which is not in the A minor scale, so i guess my question would be, why would you chose to play that note when it is not in key? because i wouldn't even consider that note as i know its not in the A minor scale, and i'd be worried it would sound like i've hit a wrong note or gone off-key, but clearly it doesn't in that daft punk track (so why the need for keys etc?). i think this is where the main confusion is coming in, playing that D major chord when the bass is playing the 3rd (Fs). If i were to use a chord that contained a note not in key, i wouldn't have imagine that melodically, using the off-key (borrowed) note would sound right, so i would be inclined to have used either the D or G (again, running into this idea i have of sticking to the key of the track).

i realise i am probably over complicating it, but the music theory i have is based on some simple classical theory which was very strict on scales, and staying in key etc. there was no room for "rule breaking" in what i learned, which is probably why i am finding it hard to understand it, (but i REALLY want to grasp it), just so i know how and when to use it, to make my music sound more interesting. thanks again, and any further enlightenment will be greatly appreciated!

[Jokari]

I was wrong when I said the D chord comes from A major, it sounds more like it comes from G major or E minor -- to see for yourself, try playing the seventh: C# gives a very different feel, but you can add a C and it still sounds pretty close. If you can read guitar chords try this chord sequence:

Am D/F# -- the beginning of the song
G G C D7 G G -- playing around in G major to make sure we really are in G major
F Dm7 Em7 Am -- the end of the song

It doesn't sound all that different! Of course the D/F# -> G transition doesn't sound at all like D/F# -> F because it relieves tension instead of increasing it, but the color of the individual chords are the same. You can try transposing the GGCD7GG series of chords around to see what tonalities sound weird and what sounds fine

It's not really rule-breaking, even classical music does this all the time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modulation_(music) . It's not even a very audacious modulation: we're just moving one notch in the circle of fifths. But it sounds a bit weird because it's totally unprepared, and that's not something you'd find in classical music. So my advice would be to play around with chords from a given key, and then try to move to a related key, e.g. one or two fifths away. It's a pretty basic modulation, but it should open you to lots of new stuff


Unfortunately I don't have any links to give you on harmony, so I'll leave that to others

[longfella]

i totally may be wrong but just as a stab in the dark, you dont think that they could be manipulating the harmonic content to achieve this, im at work at the moment but i have some shit about this at home i will have a look later. but if by eq, plus parametric and filters you could do away certain individuel waveforms or relative frequency groupps that make up the whole of that sound then maybe it leaves room for a maths sequence with in its own scale, even if not 100 technically accurate beleive that this is the rough concept

[s4w2th]

Concerning "Primetime of Your Life"...
Sounds like japanese microtonics to me, they fit almost perfectly over a western scale, given their pythagorean similarities.

Possibly, Daft Punk heard japanese traditional music somewhere.

Maybe there borowing scales and such then adapting them.


Just taking a wild stab in the dark. Ouch! Oh sorry.

[sdp]

this can be a f major scale with sharp 4
or g mixolydian with b3..
endless possibilities

[BerwickStreet]

i thought dp just sampled off old disco records then added phat kick and compression!!

[TGV]

s4w2th

you are spot on! Daft Punk are into japanese art. They even produced a manga movie or something.

In general I think DP are achieve thier succes by blending the styles. Thier sound is electronic but has "kind of" rock feel in it. I think thats what they do best. They blend styles (like disco '+ electronica ) and create something new.