Just Intonation

[Stereo Muffin]

I have only very little knowledge about music theory (only starting taking piano lessons 1,5 years ago) so please excuse if what i say makes no sense.

Are there any VST's or ways to adjust the tuning system used in lets say ableton live? Perhaps a VST that adjusts the tuning for a synth you use?

Or is this something that needs to be allready build into the VST instrument itself?

On http://www.afn.org/~sejic/index.html i read this and became interested in the subject:

"Just Intonation is the beautiful, natural tuning system that had been
used since ancient times, but fell out of use in the last two
centuries because of the limitations of early keyboard instruments.

These limitations no longer exist, especially with electronic instruments and software."

This is from http://www.tonalsoft.com/enc/encyclopedia.aspx:

"Just intonation and microtonal music theory form the basis of all musical scales and musical tuning systems. From the ancient Greeks and Sumerians right through the middle ages, musicians have studied math and music, and they were inseparable topics. Unfortunately, Western music has ignored its own math-and-music foundations for the last 100 years. Composers, theorists, and instrumentalists have completely ignored the fundamental relationship between math and music, and instead have focused on the rote learning of unchangable symbolic rules and musical scales."

What are your own thoughts on just intonation and the "new" digital world of instruments? Please share your thoughts on the subject, i just hope to understand a bit more about it after

[herodotus]

The free Proteus VX pluginfrom E-MU allows you to toggle between various tunings, including 3 different flavors of Just Intonation.

I have made various instruments for my own use using just intonation in sfz. You just need to find the difference in cents between the tempered interval and its just equivalent and specify it in the sfz file. A handy guide to these differences is available from the Just Intonation network.

[llatham]

I have only very little knowledge about music theory

Then be careful. Many people make claims about various things that are not actually rooted in fact.

Are there any VST's or ways to adjust the tuning system used in lets say ableton live? Perhaps a VST that adjusts the tuning for a synth you use?

You know, I'm sure some of the better ones do. You can call up Just Intonation, 12tet, Werkmeister, and other tuning schemes on various synthesizers and modules - Motif, Fantom, etc. In fact, I know on the Motif you can even create your own tuning scheme.

There's a program on the net called "Scala" that may be of interest to you.

Or is this something that needs to be allready build into the VST instrument itself?

Already built in. You'd have to do it on a note-by-note basis in sequencing software usually.

"Just Intonation is the beautiful, natural tuning system that had been
used since ancient times, but fell out of use in the last two
centuries because of the limitations of early keyboard instruments.

This is misinformation. Just Intonation is but one tuning system devised for musical instruments. "beautiful" is a subjective term. It fell out of use in the 1700s for keyboard instruments because composers wanted to write in more keys (and pieces were modulating to more, and more distant keys). String players (good ones) and Vocalists, especially things like Barbershop 4tet use various tuning systems "on the fly".

The "natural" and "elegant" solution to making keyboard instruments playable in all 12 keys was to make them Equal Tempered.

These limitations no longer exist, especially with electronic instruments and software."

They only existed on keyboard instruments. And even so, keyboard instruments could be retuned at will.

Unfortunately, Western music has ignored its own math-and-music foundations for the last 100 years.

This is absolutely false. Firstly, 12tet has been around since the 1800s (and we can say that "well tempered" and "even tempered" - it's progenitors, has been in practical use since the 1700s). Secondly, 12tet uses a formula called " the 12th root of 2" to calculate it's pitches. Sounds like math to me!

Composers, theorists, and instrumentalists have completely ignored the fundamental relationship between math and music, and instead have focused on the rote learning of unchangable symbolic rules and musical scales."

It's a shame they have such a biased opinion against 12tet.

What are your own thoughts on just intonation and the "new" digital world of instruments? Please share your thoughts on the subject, i just hope to understand a bit more about it after

Just Intonation is but one of many different tuning schemes for music. It makes some intervals more "in Tune" with each other, and other intervals horribly out of tune.

You want a restriction? If you tune to JI starting on C, your C Major chords will sound beautiful. F# Major will sound like Crap. So what JI does is LIMIT you to playing in the KEY to which the instrument has been tuned. 12tet removes that limitation - you can play in any key. They are "out of tune" compared to JI "base" chords, but, they are "equally out of tune" with each other.

Do a little research before you fall into the "Just Intonation is "the most natural" tuning" trap.

HTH,
Steve[/quote]

[Stereo Muffin]

The free Proteus VX pluginfrom E-MU allows you to toggle between various tunings, including 3 different flavors of Just Intonation.

I have made various instruments for my own use using just intonation in sfz. You just need to find the difference in cents between the tempered interval and its just equivalent and specify it in the sfz file. A handy guide to these differences is available from the Just Intonation network.

Thanks!

Do a little research before you fall into the "Just Intonation is "the most natural" tuning" trap.

Thanks a lot for your comments on the subject, i never said its the most natural sounding though (i just quoted some websites), god no.. i wouldn't dare

Just interested in it. But your post is very helpfull, thanks a lot for it.

[herodotus]

Just Intonation is but one of many different tuning schemes for music. It makes some intervals more "in Tune" with each other, and other intervals horribly out of tune.

You want a restriction? If you tune to JI starting on C, your C Major chords will sound beautiful. F# Major will sound like Crap. So what JI does is LIMIT you to playing in the KEY to which the instrument has been tuned. 12tet removes that limitation - you can play in any key. They are "out of tune" compared to JI "base" chords, but, they are "equally out of tune" with each other.

Do a little research before you fall into the "Just Intonation is "the most natural" tuning" trap.

HTH,
Steve

Well, it is the most natural if you regard the basic pythagorean consonances as the foundation of harmony. True, you don't have to do so. The vast majority of people wouldn't notice and couldn't care less.

But as a historical matter, the Pythagorean consonances (i.e. those that can be expressed as superparticular ratios) are the foundation of what we call harmony. These consonances have almost dissapeared from our culture, and only recently have normal humans (i.e who aren't in a consort of highly skilled early music specialists) been able to hear and play with them.

As for 'beauty', sure it's subjective. But I have never ever met anyone who heard a just major third followed by a tempered major third and who preferred the latter.

[MadBrain]

My opinion on this is that 12tone equal temperament is actually a very good tuning scheme, and that if you're just starting in the world of music, it will very well work with that you do.

Just intonation gives slightly better 3rds and 6ths, but at the cost of not being able to move around too much tonally - that's why just intonation is used in India (where they don't really use chords) and in the theoretical Turkish tuning system (not much harmony either). Inversely, western music uses loads of harmony and tonal mobility, which is why it settled into 12tet.

I'd say that aside from 12tet, the other workable systems for western music are based on 5ths of varying widths - especially well temperament such as Werkmeister. These have the added benefit of giving a different color to each key - some keys are almost Pythagorean tuning, some are almost mean-tone tuning, some are close to 12tet, etc... Otherwise, you'd have to use a system with more than 12 notes per octave (for instance, 53tet has good properties, which is why it's used in Turkish theory and is also practically a superset of India's 22-shruti traditional system), and those have so much notes that it makes it very hard to build an instrument around them.

So yeah, I think you should start with 12tet. It's actually a pretty good system when you compare it to other options.

[Stereo Muffin]

My opinion on this is that 12tone equal temperament is actually a very good tuning scheme, and that if you're just starting in the world of music, it will very well work with that you do.

Just intonation gives slightly better 3rds and 6ths, but at the cost of not being able to move around too much tonally - that's why just intonation is used in India (where they don't really use chords) and in the theoretical Turkish tuning system (not much harmony either). Inversely, western music uses loads of harmony and tonal mobility, which is why it settled into 12tet.

I'd say that aside from 12tet, the other workable systems for western music are based on 5ths of varying widths - especially well temperament such as Werkmeister. These have the added benefit of giving a different color to each key - some keys are almost Pythagorean tuning, some are almost mean-tone tuning, some are close to 12tet, etc... Otherwise, you'd have to use a system with more than 12 notes per octave (for instance, 53tet has good properties, which is why it's used in Turkish theory and is also practically a superset of India's 22-shruti traditional system), and those have so much notes that it makes it very hard to build an instrument around them.

So yeah, I think you should start with 12tet. It's actually a pretty good system when you compare it to other options.

Thanks

[VicDiesel]

and those have so much notes that it makes it very hard to build an instrument around them.

(31, not 53)

Victor.

[herodotus]

Just intonation gives slightly better 3rds and 6ths, but at the cost of not being able to move around too much tonally - that's why just intonation is used in India (where they don't really use chords) and in the theoretical Turkish tuning system (not much harmony either). Inversely, western music uses loads of harmony and tonal mobility, which is why it settled into 12tet.

This is not quite accurate.

In the first place, just intonation has traditionally been used with what are called mutable intervals. Singers versed in the system can pull off amazing feats of modulation and weird chromaticism. This is all discussed at great length in Edward Lowinsky's Secret Chromatic Art in the Netherlands Motet.

Second, many if not most pop songs are very limited in terms of the sort of remote modulations and chromatic alterations that equal temperament makes possible. Many such songs might sound a great deal better if they used just intonation. (But of course, one would then need an auto-tune device that could correct to just intonation.)

[Aroused by JarJar]

Some 30 or VST synths and samplers, maybe more, let you tune them however you'd like. That includes all the LinPlug, the Native Instruments flagships, VaZ Modular, and Zebra2 just to name some widely known examples.

So you can listen to different kinds of tunings.

And decide for yourself.

One thing, though- different kinds of tunings are appropriate for different kinds of music. So just playing the same tune or running a MIDI file through a bunch of tunings, unless the tunings are just minor variations and the original tune was written in the same general type of tuning, doesn't really tell you much.

[Baxter]

Stereo Muffin:

There is a very interesting book on this subject that you might want to have a look at. It investigates the subject fairly thoroughly and places it in a historical context. It is a very enjoyable read. Scroll down the page a little and you will find a synopsis of the book: http://www.amazon.com/Temperament-Becam ... 712&sr=8-1

Baxter

[MadBrain]

Hmm, I just went through a round of testing with my keyboard (which has adjustable tunings). Tried pythagorean, meantone, 66% meantone-33% pythagorean, 36% meantone-64% pythagorean (AKA equal temperament), some type of well-temperament in it's mostly meantone zone, and just intonation. Meantone tuning has a nice effect if you play a major chord with big octaves, a sort of "extra in tune/stable" thing (some compromise tunings and just intonation also come close), but meantone tuning has other disadvantages - sounds kinda out of tune on a fragment of Bach's Toccata in D minor (especially on a diminished chord). On 9th chords (maj9, 9, and min9), just intonation and compromise tunings such as 66% meantone, equal temperament and well temperament tend to sound good (stable), same for jazzier chords like 9#11, 9sus4b5, susb9, and just intonation does sound oddly stable. Also note that I took care not to cross wolf 5ths on tunings that have them.

[llatham]

In the first place, just intonation has traditionally been used with what are called mutable intervals. Singers versed in the system can pull off amazing feats of modulation and weird chromaticism. This is all discussed at great length in Edward Lowinsky's Secret Chromatic Art in the Netherlands Motet.

Yes, I've heard these. But, vocal ensembles will drift even when they are singing in what they think is 12tet (which is why what you mention above works when you understand it).

In either system, if the intervals a "mutable" - i.e. ever-changing, then you're not really singing in *any* tuning scheme now are you It's really "just adjustment" of harmonies on the fly, which ultimately either cause unintentional drift, or, intentional modulation.

So, it seems to depend on whether "pure chords" at the risk of drift is more or less desirable to a composer than "maintaining a center" (or "being able to modulate between centers") at the risk of having impure chords.

IMHO, we've gravitated toward the latter only because the music genre developed in such a way where modulation was important. As you said - now, with pop tunes, the need to modulate is much less so. But maybe, players are trying to keep their options open, just in case they learn a new chord

Steve

[Mr Arkadin]

Hmm, I just went through a round of testing with my keyboard (which has adjustable tunings). Tried pythagorean, meantone, 66% meantone-33% pythagorean, 36% meantone-64% pythagorean (AKA equal temperament), some type of well-temperament in it's mostly meantone zone, and just intonation.

What keyboard is this? i think i want one.

[jancivil]

Just Intonation is but one of many different tuning schemes for music. It makes some intervals more "in Tune" with each other, and other intervals horribly out of tune.

You want a restriction? If you tune to JI starting on C, your C Major chords will sound beautiful. F# Major will sound like Crap. So what JI does is LIMIT you to playing in the KEY to which the instrument has been tuned. 12tet removes that limitation - you can play in any key. They are "out of tune" compared to JI "base" chords, but, they are "equally out of tune" with each other.

Do a little research before you fall into the "Just Intonation is "the most natural" tuning" trap.

HTH,
Steve

Well, it is the most natural if you regard the basic pythagorean consonances as the foundation of harmony. True, you don't have to do so. The vast majority of people wouldn't notice and couldn't care less.

But as a historical matter, the Pythagorean consonances (i.e. those that can be expressed as superparticular ratios) are the foundation of what we call harmony. These consonances have almost dissapeared from our culture, and only recently have normal humans (i.e who aren't in a consort of highly skilled early music specialists) been able to hear and play with them.

As for 'beauty', sure it's subjective. But I have never ever met anyone who heard a just major third followed by a tempered major third and who preferred the latter.

Yes. If you compare it to the way things vibrate, cf. Pythagoras and string lengths, it is the most natural. The compromises 12-ET makes in order to allow modulation across-the-board, are compromises in the way a tone relates to a tonic.

The statement on limitations is as obviously true. But there seems to be the subtext that not having this, note the all caps, LIMIT, is eminently desirable.

"Most natural" is the bone of contention. It seems clear that a person saying that, re: JI, means acoustically natural.

If there is an argument that 12-ET is 'natural', I'd love to see it.