Noiseless "singlecoils"

[susiwong]

Hi all,
we came across this topic in another thread, so I'm starting this one to keep us from hijacking the other topic too much.

Looks like some of us are using noiseless SC replacements (not HBs fitting in SC slots), let's discuss !

I've owned several of those over the years, here are my personal impressions :
The sounds I'm going for are mostly modern country a la Brent Mason and Dann Huff, '70s Knopfler, modern Fogerty and the like, I'm using tube amps like a wonderful Peavey Classic 50 212, MESA Heartbreaker, SF Fenders or JCM 800.

-- Lace Sensors Gold : a bit too clinical for my taste, nice for those '80s clean mega-effected sounds a la Lukather
-- Lace Sensors Blue : more HB sounding, could be a pleasant compromise if you're after your own sound rather than "classic" Fender tone
-- diMarzio HS-2 : a good real SC when split, kinda unimpressive in noiseless mode, very low output
-- Duncan Classic Tele Stack - one of SD's early efforts, wasn't too sad when it died an untimely death, rather generic sound
-- Keystone (by Bill Lawrence) - sounded great in my custom Strat with Clapton electronics (Tele bridge, Strat middle and neck), had two Tele bridge PUs die on me due to the top coming off and killing the windings, now the remaining Strat PUs are combined with a JB Jr. in an ESP 800 Strat, ok Tone, a bit dark, will probably be "activated" soon with either another EC preamp or an EMG booster pot I have lying around
-- Fender Noiseless - my current "standard", sound great with the EC Strat (vintage set) and in two Teles with a Hot Noiseless bridge PU in the middle (works for me since I have the middle PU flush with the pickguard to be out of the way, so it's nicely balanced with the Tele Noiseless PUs), a pleasant allround tone but not quite as dynamic as real SCs, probably good for me since I'm more after a rounder, "purring" tone instead of an ultra dynamic, "tearing paper" kind of tone if that makes any sense.
The newer Samarium Cobalt types sound a bit more dynamic, but not different enough to exchange the older ones

Imho, ymmv ...

Would love to hear your experience, please also state briefly what tone, music, guitar, amp you're talking about.

Nice sunday,
susiwong

[Ian B]

I put a set of Fender Vintage Noiseless pups on a great tele copy, a Harley Benton HBT2000, and they were superb imo. Personally I found them every bit as bright/dynamic as stock Fender tele pups, but were totally silent no matter how much distortion I used.

[susiwong]

Good to hear, Ian !

Quite important :

Fender supplied a wrong wiring diagram with the Noiseless Strat set for a long time, so make sure to use a generic Strat schematic or your own design.

The supplied 1 meg pots are not ideal imho, experiment with 500k or even 250k instead, most people like that better

Cheers,
susiwong

[Sascha Franck]

As I said in the other thread, I got me two Kinmans recently.
One for the middle position of my Anderson:

(I ahould get a black pickup cover, the dumbasses at Thomann sent the wrong sized one...)

Another one for the bridge position of my Pacifica Tele:

You can as well see two other single-coil sized humbuckers in it. The one next to the brigde is one of the original Anderson PUs and it's by far the worst sounding PU I've ever heard, extremely noisy (huh?) and with no character at all. I'll replace it just today (I have a "Framus Duncan Designed" double blade thing hanging around which I'd like to try). In the neck position there's a very old DiMarzio, I don't remember the model at all anymore. It's a tad too soft and will probably be replaced one day as well.

And I've got a full set of Fender Noiseless (those with the slightly higher output) in my G&L:

You will as well notice the additional Little 59.

As far as the sound goes, the Kinman used in the Pacifica sounds pretty "harsh-ish". Defenitely not a vintage Tele-sound. That's exactly the reason why I had that additional PU built in, I can blend between the two and have a little softness mixed in (actually I pretty much like the idea of this, the basic 3-way switching stays easy but I have more tonal options for the bridge position).

The Kinman used in the Anderson is more like a "supplement" PU. The 5 way switch only activates it in positions 2 (bridge and middle) and 3 (middle alone), I don't need neck and middle (in position 4 I've got neck and bridge activated). Sounds fine in combination with the bridge PU (a handwired one coming from my luthier of choice) and I'm occasionally using it alone as well, for some, hm, "soul-ish whacks" on 2 and 4 or so.

The Fender set in the G&L actually doesn't sound too much like what you're used hearing from a strat, but that's more because the guitar itself doesn't sound like a strat. It's truly heavy, dense ash (I think) with none of the sweet resonances a light alder or swamp ash body would give you. The sound is pretty much higher mid based and the PUs sort of enhance this. After all, the guitar works best with distorted sounds (even if it's not a real rock axe).

I will hopefully be able to post a few sound clips later on (perhaps after I replaced the PU in the Pacifica).

Oh, one note: As you may have seen from the pics and descriptions already, I'm usually not giving much about whatever "authentic" sounds. These three guitars right now are my main live axes, hence the noiseless PUs (you won't believe the incredibly bad quality of theatre power circuits, and I'm playing in theatres a lot) and the additional flexibility on all of them. I actually need guitars suitable for a broader range of styles and ideally they would react fine towards my playing. These three do that just fine.
I still plan on having myself a strat built (by Thomas Stratmann, nomen est omen...) next year - with that one I will go for true singlecoils and probably invest in one of those Suhr backplate noise-canceller thingies (which, while being incredibly expensive, seem to do a fabulous job, I tried one of his strats a few months ago - no noise, authentic strat sound).

Cheers
Sascha

[susiwong]

Hi Sascha,
thanks for the extremely detailed post !
I'm familiar with most of your PUs, except for the Andersons and the Kinmans.
What models are they exactly ?

As far as the sound goes, the Kinman used in the Pacifica sounds pretty "harsh-ish". Defenitely not a vintage Tele-sound. That's exactly the reason why I had that additional PU built in, I can blend between the two and have a little softness mixed in

Exactly what Brent Mason does, and the reason I love Teles with a middle PU.
One thing I've learnt about "that" vintage Tele tone (ymmv) : one of the key ingredients is the old bridge with 3 brass (not steel !) barrel saddles, the difference to a six saddle bridge is so obvious it's not even funny.
This need not necessarily concern you, I'm more of a semi-traditionalist in that regard, but the tone certainly gets a lot rounder, bluesier while still retaining that unmistakable Tele character.
I'll be back in a few hours,
cheers,
susiwong

[Sascha Franck]

I'm familiar with most of your PUs, except for the Andersons and the Kinmans.
What models are they exactly ?

Well, the Anderson is made by Anderson - no idea what they're modeled after. After a piece of shit? Seriously, they're as bad s it gets. Dull and lifeless. I only exchanged them recently (the original PU setup featured two single coil size humbuckers and a normal humbucker for the bridge position) and the difference between the guitar as it was and as it is right now is simply unbelievable.

The Kinman in the Tele is an AVn 48b, the one in the Anderson an AVn 56.

Exactly what Brent Mason does, and the reason I love Teles with a middle PU.

Hm, no, the switching in the Brent Mason model (which I played in a shop in Tokyo earlier this year, fantastic guitar but way too expensive) is different. It mixes in the middle PU regardless of the setting of the 3-way switch, whereas I mix between the two rear PUs. IMO my switching is a little better to handle, the unfortunate disadvantage being that you don't get full levels in middle position of the blender pot. I have yet to find a different pot (right now it's a high quality but typical tandem pot) blending both PUs at equal levels in all pot positions (maybe I'll even replace it with a 5-way rotary switch...).
In addition, the Brent Mason model has a true middle PU whereas I wanted it to be as close to the bridge plate as possible, giving it a less sweet sound.

One thing I've learnt about "that" vintage Tele tone (ymmv) : one of the key ingredients is the old bridge with 3 brass (not steel !) barrel saddles, the difference to a six saddle bridge is so obvious it's not even funny.

I totally agree. But then, a) I wasn't exactly looking for an authentic Tele sound and b) I really dig those GraphTech bridge saddles (as you can see, I have them on all of the three guitars). Absolutely no string breakage anymore. I made a hardcore test last spring and played 16 3 hour shows, two 6 hour gala gigs and 4 or 5 musical shows with one set of strings. You won't believe how worn out they felt and sounded, but no breakage at all. Since I got the GraphTechs, I finally need to exchange strings because they're starting to sound bad, not because they would break. Especially on the Anderson and the G&L this is quite an important thing for me as they both have free floating trems, so a broken string equals a showstopper.

Cheers
Sascha

[susiwong]

Hi Sascha,
thanks for the info about the Kinmans !
I might be tempted to try out the HX85 some day, rumoured to be real close to a P90 in Strat format. Could be a nice alternative to a bridge humbucker.
Graphtech saddles are good, better than they look.
I got a set of those on a US Schecter, no negative influence on tone afaics and one problem less.
You're spot on about Mason's switching, I know, but I was simply referring to the not exactly common idea to get "classic Tele bridge tone" by adding (bits) of another pickup, which is at the heart of your, Brent's and my own approach.

One little idea to tame the "harshness" a bit, did you already experiment with various volume pots ?
The higher the pot value the brighter the tone, since the resonance frequency changes. Values between ca. 150k and 1 megohm are perfectly acceptable, the difference can be quite spectacular.
It's quick and cheap, so...
Cheers,
susiwong

[Bevoss]

I'll just repost this from the other thread:



That's interesting, I used to swap pickups all the time from Dimarzio/Duncan/Fender/Rio Grande, you name it... I finally settled on Kinmans also, fantastic tone and quiet. The only thing better imo is the Suhr Fletcher-Landau pickups combined with their Backplate Silent System, which basically defeats the noise without affecting the tone at all.

http://www.suhrguitars.com/pickups.aspx#bpssc

http://www.suhrguitars.com/pickups.aspx


And for a beautiful '59-ish sounding humbucker, the Suhr DSH is the only one I have found to split to a true single coil tone authentically:

http://www.suhrguitars.com/pickups.aspx#ssh

[Sascha Franck]

The Suhr Backplate System seems to be just what the doctor ordered. Unfortunately, it's really expensive.

[bagginz]

Another vote for Kinmans.

Replaced my middle and neck pickups in my Ibanez with Avn62s (humbucker at the bridge)

Love the fat, clanky strat sound of the neck pickup.

Front and middle sounds sweet as, middle for more honk and a bit more clank.

Also blends surprisingly well with a coil tapped HB at the bridge - but that's not really a sound I use much.

As single coil sounding it gets but absolutely-no-noise-whatsoever onstage under lights etc.

Cheers,
bagginz

[EuropeanOnUranus]

Fender Custom Shop Texas Specials in my Strat. True single coils but they humbuck in switch positions 2 and 4 because the middle PU is reverse wound & reversed polarity magnets.

[susiwong]

Thank for all the good info !
Guess I'll check out a set of Kinmans one of these days.
The Suhr system looks great, but I have to check it out myself to believe it.
How does it deal with hum coming from several directions like in a typical small studio ?
Do you have to readjust it for every new stage or is the process guitar-specific (probably) ?
I don't think the US price is that unreasonable, about what you'd pay for a set of quality PUs. If you have a fantastic sounding but humming Strat it might well be worth it.
Cheers,
susiwong

[Bevoss]

The Suhr system looks great, but I have to check it out myself to believe it.
How does it deal with hum coming from several directions like in a typical small studio ?
Do you have to readjust it for every new stage or is the process guitar-specific (probably) ?

Here's a link with Scott Henderson (who used to use Kinmans) explaining the SSC system:

http://www.suhrguitars.com/news2.aspx?story=SSC


and a video demonstrating it:

http://www.prosoundcommunications.com/e ... rc_bb.html

[susiwong]

On a side note:
Can anybody recommend a convincing noiseless P-90 ?
That's probably what I'd be most interested in atm.
I've found my favourite HBs (Pearly Gates, or maybe Classic 57s for a mellow semi), for SCs I can live with Fender Noiseless atm, maybe check out some Kinmans.
But P-90s is a different story.
And Bevoss, I'll be looking into that backplate thing closer for sure.
Cheers,
susiwong

[Ian B]

On a side note:
Can anybody recommend a convincing noiseless P-90 ?
That's probably what I'd be most interested in atm.
I've found my favourite HBs (Pearly Gates, or maybe Classic 57s for a mellow semi), for SCs I can live with Fender Noiseless atm, maybe check out some Kinmans.
But P-90s is a different story.
And Bevoss, I'll be looking into that backplate thing closer for sure.
Cheers,
susiwong

Probably not what you're looking for, but I replaced the cheap'n'nasty P90-esques pups on another budget guitar with a pair of DiMarzio DLX Plus pups (154 > bridge and 162 > neck) These are more soapbar shaped humbuckers and I don't really know how they compare soundwise with decent P90's, but I thought they were great.