Whole song with no Tonic chord?

[ichijou]

I've been working on chord progressions and I came across this, Ride like the wind by Christopher Cross, which is in Eb, and only has four chords, Cm/Bb/Ab/Gm, so not once is the I chord played, is it me or is thing kind of strange?

[someone called simon]

but its in Cm.... the Tonic chord is right there.

One of the songs I play in a duo is 'Dreams' by Fleetwood mac. Basically F to G repeated. with a tiny few Am chords in the instrumental break. So I think that song would most likely be in C, which never features. Arguably its in a mode of G... or even more arguably F i suppose. But I think its in C, because neither the F or the G feels like 'home'. its always in a kind of tension. Quite clever in its simplicity.

But it is unusual for a song not to feature the tonic chord.

[nuffink]

I've been working on chord progressions and I came across this, Ride like the wind by Christopher Cross, which is in Eb, and only has four chords, Cm/Bb/Ab/Gm, so not once is the I chord played, is it me or is thing kind of strange?

It's not unknown for the iii chord to substitute for the tonic. In which case you have a descending chord stream in Eb - vi|V|IV|iii

You could (if you so wished) call it a Phrygian progression.

[visa tapani]

It's not unknown for the iii chord to substitute for the tonic. In which case you have a descending chord stream in Eb - vi|V|IV|iii

You could (if you so wished) call it a Phrygian progression.

Hmm that sounds like a pretty unlike progression to me. Although as the second poster mentioned, the song is clearly in C minor, not Eb major, so it's a non-issue really...

[Aroused by JarJar]

I've been working on chord progressions and I came across this, Ride like the wind by Christopher Cross, which is in Eb, and only has four chords, Cm/Bb/Ab/Gm, so not once is the I chord played, is it me or is thing kind of strange?

Usually a song in minor is notated in its relative major. To put it the other way around, C minor is the relative minor of Eb major and so C minor is usually notated in the the key of Eb Major.

The same with the other "church modes", for example C Dorian would be notated in the key of Bb Major.

In the song you list above, the chord progression doesn't actually suggest
"C minor" in a "classical" sense, but C Aeolian or "natural minor". The usual chromatically altered note in "minor", in "common practice western tonal music", is the leading tone. In the case of C minor, that's a B natural (also called H). The chord progression you quote clearly avoids that chromatic note and goes i,VII,VI,v in C Aeolian. The two chords which contain the seven clearly state that it is flat and not the leading tone. Another way to refer to this would be to call the piece "modal".

Obviously it's perfectly cool and correct to call the progression "minor" in popular music as simon did, because the "classical" minor isn't a scale but a key, another modality with two scales and "standard" chromatic alterations, but in popular and folk song the foundation is melodies, scales and accompanying chords, not "keys" in the "classical" sense. When you say "minor" in popular music you don't automatically imply the "common practice" chromaticisms and Picardy thirds and all that stuff.

If this seems like a lot of text about a minor issue, no pun intended, it is not- it's actually just scratching the surface.

The reason is is that these things are all audible, not "just theory". Obviously you can hear there is something going on otherwise you wouldn't be digging the song and asking about it.

What's actually going on in popular music can be far more subtle and sophisticated than a cursory glance from a "classical" perspective might suggest. For one thing the percieved tonic can kind of "float", as in the example "someone called simon" gave.

I bet the tonal center of the song he describes is C, as Simon says. Whoops no pun intended there either. From an acoustic and psychoacoustic viewpoint, alternating between F and G means that you can create a kind of symmetry around C so the tonic is suspended right in the middle. If there are plenty of c's in the melody of that song (I bet there are) and you have some Amin chords in there (indicating the relative minor), you can have completely different sounding "C Major" without beating it into your head with V-I, V-I!
Probably sounds excellent.

And in the example you gave it is not impossible that the song could sometimes, or somewhat, feel like it is in Eb, if the bass is not playing roots for example you could get plenty of Eb's and Bb's in the bass. And C Aeolian or natural minor is not as forcefully tonal on C as "C minor" is. So once again with these two factors (suggesting Eb in the bass and more softly insisting on C above ) it is possible that the tonality could kind of "float". Which is very sweet.

As anyone who actually knows or simply listens can tell, the tricks mentioned in another recent thread like "build chords on tone up so many diatonic steps and down so many steps" are hmm.... well, bullshit. The examples you and simon give are concrete examples of ways to go about not "starting on the tonic" and getting away from I-ii-V-I in general.

[Aroused by JarJar]

I've been working on chord progressions and I came across this, Ride like the wind by Christopher Cross, which is in Eb, and only has four chords, Cm/Bb/Ab/Gm, so not once is the I chord played, is it me or is thing kind of strange?

It's not unknown for the iii chord to substitute for the tonic. In which case you have a descending chord stream in Eb - vi|V|IV|iii

You could (if you so wished) call it a Phrygian progression.

Have you got an ax to grind with Occam's razor or something?

I see i...v in C Aeolian, notated (in the completely standard way) in Eb Major, exactly as "someone called simon" immediately, and correctly from the information given, responded.

And if the original poster is hearing an Eb tonic to whatever degree, this kind of thing can happen precisely as I described. ("Common practice" tonality developed ways to specifically avoid, or use only in certain places, this kind of thing happening, in order to strengthen something else, which is the strongly defined movement of tonal centers).

[nuffink]

...

[Aroused by JarJar]

I've been working on chord progressions and I came across this, Ride like the wind by Christopher Cross, which is in Eb, and only has four chords, Cm/Bb/Ab/Gm, so not once is the I chord played, is it me or is thing kind of strange?

It's not unknown for the iii chord to substitute for the tonic. In which case you have a descending chord stream in Eb - vi|V|IV|iii

You could (if you so wished) call it a Phrygian progression.

Have you got an ax to grind with Occam's razor or something?

I see i...v in C Aeolian, notated (in the completely standard way) in Eb Major, exactly as "someone called simon" immediately, and correctly from the information given, responded.

And if the original poster is hearing an Eb tonic to whatever degree, this kind of thing can happen precisely as I described. ("Common practice" tonality developed ways to specifically avoid, or use only in certain places, this kind of thing happening, in order to strengthen something else, which is the strongly defined movement of tonal centers).

No I don't have a problem with occams razor. Do you have a problem with the original poster? I assumed he had the sheet music and that it was notated as being in Eb. Otherwise why would he say so?
Given that he's not lying, how would you explain the progression?

Why don't you read my posts? I explained it quite exactly. "Notated in Eb Major" and "notated in C Minor", in terms key signatures, is usually the same damn thing!

[nuffink]

I've been working on chord progressions and I came across this, Ride like the wind by Christopher Cross, which is in Eb, and only has four chords, Cm/Bb/Ab/Gm, so not once is the I chord played, is it me or is thing kind of strange?

It's not unknown for the iii chord to substitute for the tonic. In which case you have a descending chord stream in Eb - vi|V|IV|iii

You could (if you so wished) call it a Phrygian progression.

Have you got an ax to grind with Occam's razor or something?

I see i...v in C Aeolian, notated (in the completely standard way) in Eb Major, exactly as "someone called simon" immediately, and correctly from the information given, responded.

And if the original poster is hearing an Eb tonic to whatever degree, this kind of thing can happen precisely as I described. ("Common practice" tonality developed ways to specifically avoid, or use only in certain places, this kind of thing happening, in order to strengthen something else, which is the strongly defined movement of tonal centers).

No I don't have a problem with occams razor. Do you have a problem with the original poster? I assumed he had the sheet music and that it was notated as being in Eb. Otherwise why would he say so?
Given that he's not lying, how would you explain the progression?

Why don't you read my posts? I explained it quite exactly. "Notated in Eb Major" and "notated in C Minor", in terms key signatures, is usually the same damn thing!

Err... Why don't you read mine cocker?

[nuffink]

Because if you had you'd have realised I'd thought better of it and deleted it.

[nuffink]

Possibly because you were a little bit fast on the trigger?

[nuffink]

However, not so quick that you've deleted your rebuttal in the time that I've posted four more times.

[Aroused by JarJar]

What are you going on about, nuffink? This isn't some kind of duel, Anyway if it were some internet wankoff you'd surely "beat" me well and proper. For one thing my pace is set by things like, dropping in when Csound is rendering and things like that.

You should just read my original post. And learn.[/img]

[nuffink]

What are you going on about, nuffink? This isn't some kind of duel, Anyway if it were some internet wankoff you'd surely "beat" me well and proper. For one thing my pace is set by things like, dropping in when Csound is rendering and things like that.

You should just read my original post. And learn.[/img]

I posted, thought better of it and deleted it. You helpfully corrected something I'd already dumped.

And I did learn one thing - you're a wanker. Ta, I'll bear it in mind.

[VicDiesel]

"Laura". The tonic chord appears only at the very end, after 64 measures or so. And that feels forced, like "we can't very well end on anything else, so let's throw in a quick modulation".

Victor.