I just completed an entire musical score for a Hip Hop R&B musical. Writing a musical is an adventure to say the least, and a huge learning experience.
I'm curious as to what others think regarding the creation of great songs, like, "What is the genesis of a great song?" People can disagree, but I seemed to feel that the two essential ingredients are (A) a captivating, chord progression and (B) powerful lyrics.
A magical chord progression generates a captivating melody AND an arrangement that enhances the melody and lyrics.
Powerful lyrics added to a stunning melody complete the song, like a wonderous combination of colors in a painting.
Using this approach, pretty much demands that the composer, even a talented one, must tenaciously and doggedly, search for that hidden chord progression on his keyboard or guitar. That's one man's opinion.
What makes a great song?
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- KVRist
- 155 posts since 16 Feb, 2008
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
What does Foxy Lady do? Sticks on the I7(#9) with that bass riff every other bar, then does the double plagal thing in the chorus (I ///) bVII / IV.
In itself, not that compelling a chordal idea, is it? But, the LINE is strong, the lyric grabs you in your netherregions, and the sheer audacity of the idea 'generates an arrangement' that's equal to the task.
In itself, not that compelling a chordal idea, is it? But, the LINE is strong, the lyric grabs you in your netherregions, and the sheer audacity of the idea 'generates an arrangement' that's equal to the task.
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- KVRist
- 350 posts since 11 May, 2008
I'd say that it is a simple motif that you memorize and then it keeps bouncing in your ear forever.
Most of great songs are simple, but they are very effective. The lead line is easy to memorize and to remember. Probably is very straighforward so you can sing it well. And not very long. Something that you say A A' A A'' for instance. four or five notes that you repeat with a slight variation and so on.
Then, having that, the secret is just the choice of an instrument and it goes...because many times the chord progression can be changed and the song keeps strong. I'd say that the chord progression can help, but it's totally secondary in this issue. Most people remember and humm the melody, not the harmony.
Most of great songs are simple, but they are very effective. The lead line is easy to memorize and to remember. Probably is very straighforward so you can sing it well. And not very long. Something that you say A A' A A'' for instance. four or five notes that you repeat with a slight variation and so on.
Then, having that, the secret is just the choice of an instrument and it goes...because many times the chord progression can be changed and the song keeps strong. I'd say that the chord progression can help, but it's totally secondary in this issue. Most people remember and humm the melody, not the harmony.
Play fair and square!
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- KVRAF
- 11307 posts since 18 Aug, 2007 from NYC
Defining a great song depends entirely on the genre. The same goes for determining the characteristics that define the qualities of a great song.
I shouldn't be surprised if this thread is created for the sole purpose of entertainment by reading heated responses... if that's not true I hope the OP can clarify.
Some songs are entirely dependent on the rhythm, more so than lyrical content or chord progression.
Often lyrical content is irrelevant.
Again... it all boils down to what genre/sub genre in determining the characteristics of a great song. It won't be the same for all, but it might be the same for all songs per individual since "greatness" is purely subjective.
I shouldn't be surprised if this thread is created for the sole purpose of entertainment by reading heated responses... if that's not true I hope the OP can clarify.
Some songs are entirely dependent on the rhythm, more so than lyrical content or chord progression.
Often lyrical content is irrelevant.
Again... it all boils down to what genre/sub genre in determining the characteristics of a great song. It won't be the same for all, but it might be the same for all songs per individual since "greatness" is purely subjective.
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- KVRist
- 144 posts since 3 Oct, 2006 from South Cack
I don't know if it's a bias on my part towards instrumental music, but I agree with the OP's first posit on the captivating progression. The movement of the chords and a melody that grabs the listener and forces them to consider what the music is saying is truly the heart of not just a great song, but almost every type of musical composition. There are exceptions, such as a particular genre grabbing the listener because that set of ears and that brain happen to "get" what the composer is trying to do...it may not be a universally, asthetically "pleaseing" pice of work, but the composer was certainly clever and used the idiom to get his point across.
As far as lyrics go, I'm of the school that they are subservient to the rest of the work in a musical setting. Some of the best songs (or certainly the most successful) have lyrics which aren't powerful at all. If the lyric is the most powerful element in a musical work, to me that is poetry with accompaniment, not a song.
As far as lyrics go, I'm of the school that they are subservient to the rest of the work in a musical setting. Some of the best songs (or certainly the most successful) have lyrics which aren't powerful at all. If the lyric is the most powerful element in a musical work, to me that is poetry with accompaniment, not a song.
I am clearly a thread killer
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- KVRian
- 873 posts since 16 Dec, 2004
Its one of the most subjective things around, so I'm sure you will find many different, and conflicting view points.
Enter; my opinion.
Epics, give me a 7+ minute song that progresses through some diverse emotions, throw in moments of great musicianship, top it off with mostly complex melodies, and rhythms and that is more likely to get me interested than a catchy riff. Of course there are exceptions to all the rules, and I can still enjoy a relativity short, rather catchy tune, as long as it still has some layers of complexity.
As already mentioned however, I always enjoy well written lyrics, but I often find the singer, and band mates ability to emote the song is much more important than the actual words.
Enter; my opinion.
Epics, give me a 7+ minute song that progresses through some diverse emotions, throw in moments of great musicianship, top it off with mostly complex melodies, and rhythms and that is more likely to get me interested than a catchy riff. Of course there are exceptions to all the rules, and I can still enjoy a relativity short, rather catchy tune, as long as it still has some layers of complexity.
As already mentioned however, I always enjoy well written lyrics, but I often find the singer, and band mates ability to emote the song is much more important than the actual words.
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- KVRAF
- 2217 posts since 15 Jul, 2003
catchy this, catchy that
a lot of musical conventions and 'programming' have entered the neural net
so there's the conventional expectations and the unconventional unexpected in the never-ending balance of tension and release
7ths resolve to 3rds, 9ths resolve to 5ths
that sort of thing
interesting that someone who just wrote a whole musical should be asking the question now
but then 'Somewhere Over the Rainbow' almost didn't make it into 'The Wizard of Oz'
a lot of musical conventions and 'programming' have entered the neural net
so there's the conventional expectations and the unconventional unexpected in the never-ending balance of tension and release
7ths resolve to 3rds, 9ths resolve to 5ths
that sort of thing
interesting that someone who just wrote a whole musical should be asking the question now
but then 'Somewhere Over the Rainbow' almost didn't make it into 'The Wizard of Oz'
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 155 posts since 16 Feb, 2008
I am going to suggest more thoughts as to what makes a great song.
Many songs in many genres are excellent. I could listen to thumping techno, hot, jumping bluegrass, driving rock, really nice Mexican ballads, or those from Peru, jazz songs and be entertained all day. BUT, what distinguishes a great song from just an entertaining one? Let's take two examples: Twila Paris's, "The Warrior is a child" and Paul McCartney's, "Yesterday." What do they have in common? (1) Emotional Depth that communicates to everyone; so much emotion and feeling packed into the melody and the lyrics that many people are driven to tears. Great songs strike deep into the soul. Great songs have a uniqueness all their own (chord progression and melody) If you listen to techno, after twenty minutes, they all sound the same. If you write three chord songs, repeatedly using the same chords, chances are, you will fail at great music. Magical chord progressions make magical music. It is extremely difficult to attain emotional depth using common, overused chords/progressions or keys.
Lastly, another thing I noticed, the unbelievable turns of a chord progression can give rise to the dramatic, emotional depth, like "The Warrior is a Child." One Man's opinion for discussion.
Many songs in many genres are excellent. I could listen to thumping techno, hot, jumping bluegrass, driving rock, really nice Mexican ballads, or those from Peru, jazz songs and be entertained all day. BUT, what distinguishes a great song from just an entertaining one? Let's take two examples: Twila Paris's, "The Warrior is a child" and Paul McCartney's, "Yesterday." What do they have in common? (1) Emotional Depth that communicates to everyone; so much emotion and feeling packed into the melody and the lyrics that many people are driven to tears. Great songs strike deep into the soul. Great songs have a uniqueness all their own (chord progression and melody) If you listen to techno, after twenty minutes, they all sound the same. If you write three chord songs, repeatedly using the same chords, chances are, you will fail at great music. Magical chord progressions make magical music. It is extremely difficult to attain emotional depth using common, overused chords/progressions or keys.
Lastly, another thing I noticed, the unbelievable turns of a chord progression can give rise to the dramatic, emotional depth, like "The Warrior is a Child." One Man's opinion for discussion.
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- KVRist
- 93 posts since 2 Mar, 2006 from Newark, CA
Simple, does the song generate a feeling in my body that makes me want to listen to it again and again? If yes, then it's a great song.
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- KVRAF
- 1595 posts since 17 Nov, 2007 from Seattle, WA
By your definition, there is pretty much no great songs within the genre of techno, as it is rhythmically driven, with typically no vocals at all, and little to no focus on tonality. For example.chicagodannyd wrote:People can disagree, but I seemed to feel that the two essential ingredients are (A) a captivating, chord progression and (B) powerful lyrics.
And to avoid potential confusion, don't mix up techno to mean electronic music. One is a small genre within the larger umbrella.
I don't mind your endeavor to explore the idea of what makes music great; I like the idea. But your conclusion is, obviously, insufficient!
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- KVRian
- 756 posts since 21 Sep, 2006 from Kranj, Slovenia
You cannot "plan" a great song. It becomes "great" in the minds of the followers over the years.
Ravel considered "Bolero" as his most crap composition.
Ravel considered "Bolero" as his most crap composition.
Every time you use autotune, God kills a kitten.
Please, think of the kittens.
Please, think of the kittens.
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- KVRian
- 756 posts since 21 Sep, 2006 from Kranj, Slovenia
Most of Bob Dylan's work is three chord songschicagodannyd wrote:If you write three chord songs, repeatedly using the same chords, chances are, you will fail at great music.
Every time you use autotune, God kills a kitten.
Please, think of the kittens.
Please, think of the kittens.
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- KVRAF
- 1682 posts since 13 Oct, 2003 from Oulu, Finland
1. Catchy hook.
2. Arrangement that supports it.
2. Arrangement that supports it.
Misspellers of the world, unit!
https://soundcloud.com/aflecht
https://soundcloud.com/aflecht