KVR Audio

amiga909 · Post by **amiga909** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:22 pm

there already 2 apc40 threads here. but since this question did not seem to fit in there, I decided to try a new thread.

reference:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=247417
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=246086

I like the controller but I wonder if I would like it without Live. looking at it like a non-integrated, standard controller:
- there is no edit mode in the APC40, settings are fixed? (there is no edit soft afaik)
- vital question: does it allow bidirectional control as the monome or the new ohm64? (means: you can build a step seq cause input and output behavior is separated)
- is Max for Live the only choice to reprogram a APC40 for this purpose then?

amiga909 · Post by **amiga909** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:17 pm

bump.

it may sound outerwordly bizarre: using a device for something it wasnt intended! adults only may continue reading

come on.. nobody knows whats the deal with the APC40? or did I look at the wrong spot?
thanks.

loungedumore · Post by **loungedumore** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:04 pm

amiga909 wrote:bump.

it may sound outerwordly bizarre: using a device for something it wasnt intended! adults only may continue reading

come on.. nobody knows whats the deal with the APC40? or did I look at the wrong spot?
thanks.

Should go to akai pro's website and download the pdf ...but my guess is no .

amiga909 · Post by **amiga909** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:47 pm

loungedumore wrote:
amiga909 wrote:bump.

it may sound outerwordly bizarre: using a device for something it wasnt intended! adults only may continue reading

come on.. nobody knows whats the deal with the APC40? or did I look at the wrong spot?
thanks.
Should go to akai pro's website and download the pdf ...but my guess is no .

tkx for your reply.

there is a manual? only spotted a single page ad.

hmmmm... I guess time will show. did crawl again in the web
http://createdigitalmusic.com/2009/02/1 ... eton-live/
it seems, as I guessed that you cannot change params on the APC itself. its all one preset. bidirectional control should be possible, the question is only how bad stepseq-running-light fx is hidden in sysex strings (or worse, since the APC has no midi, only usb?) - and who will be the first to hack it

patience is the answer, I guess?
anybody interested in using the APC for other hosts? it still way cheaper than an ohm64..

amiga909 · Post by **amiga909** » Thu May 07, 2009 2:53 pm

is it already time to reconsider this question?

what i want to know is if i can use another host to have bidirectional control. eg. use the APC as stepseq with cubase, usine, whatever.

akaipro.com says
"There is also a special communication protocol with a hardware-software "handshake" that makes the system work together."

smells like propietary shit, I guess MaxForLive hides this communication protocol, and somebody would need to hack it, similarily to the padkontrol hack ?

amiga909 · Post by **amiga909** » Sat May 30, 2009 8:45 pm

koalaboy · Post by **koalaboy** » Sat May 30, 2009 9:10 pm

I thought it was possible to use it as a standard MIDI controller so long as your software can be mapped because it outputs fixed MIDI messages.

I could be wrong though - I'm trying to think where I saw this. The handshake is more to do with other controllers not being able to 'pretend' they're an APC to Live, I think.

Ah, here we go:

The APC40 is designed to be a dedicated controller for Ableton with specific midi cc's that are hardwired for Ableton. There would not be a way to remap this on the ACP40. However if you can manually map your sequencing software or plugin to other midi cc values, then you can match this up to what the APC40 is set to in order to have control.

Taken from here which itself was from elsewhere.

As for bi-directional, I haven't seen anything about that as such. Probably best you ask one of the folks that has one.

EDIT: Actually, the more I read, the more I can't see why it couldn't be bi-directional, assuming your host could send the right values. There's lots more info here as well.

amiga909 · Post by **amiga909** » Sun May 31, 2009 11:32 am

tkx koala for your input:

ur last link:

In one of the NAMM videos, somebody at AKAI proudly mentions a secret handshake between Live and the APC. But other reports seem to indicate that this unit just sends out MIDI. Does the device or Live send anything other than MIDI signals?

The APC Sends simple midi messages, and most of the banking and Session View control is handled internally in Live. Connecting another controller and selecting the APC40 preset will not work, even if that controller sends the same MIDI messages.

no doubt, receiving from the APC is no problem. the problem is how you can send messages to the APC (eg. change color of a button)

Will this secret handshake prevent us from turning a Monome + BCR into an APC?
Yes.

this again is not what i'd like to figure out: Ableton Live expects a certain HELLO message to accept a midi device as APC controller. surely this could be hacked thu (eg. Mackie controller hacks)

i fear that the APC40 does not simply accept different midi messages, as the ohm controller does (midi setup for each controller is different for incoming and outgoing messages), or of course the monome. in the case of korgs padkontrol some nice people decoded the sysex format. since the APC is USB only, it could be much worse than sysex...
the only way to change the display behavior on the APC seems to be MaxForLive which only runs with Ableton, afaik?

.. dam, i hate that propietary stuff: imagine u'd would like to switch from Live to another host some day. ur controller setup is screwed cause its coupled to a single host.

koalaboy · Post by **koalaboy** » Sun May 31, 2009 11:38 am

I think the only use of the handshake is to prevent any other controller using the APC40 template in Live, so you couldn't (without decoding it) use your BRC2000 etc., as a cheap APC40.

However, I don't think it affects using the APC40 with any other software, as it's just a MIDI controller. You just need to be able to have the other software work with whatever MIDI messages the APC40 puts out / accepts - you could probably use something like Bidule as a go-between/translator.

amiga909 · Post by **amiga909** » Sun May 31, 2009 12:15 pm

koalaboy wrote:I think the only use of the handshake is to prevent any other controller using the APC40 template in Live, so you couldn't (without decoding it) use your BRC2000 etc., as a cheap APC40.

However, I don't think it affects using the APC40 with any other software, as it's just a MIDI controller. You just need to be able to have the other software work with whatever MIDI messages the APC40 puts out / accepts - you could probably use something like Bidule as a go-between/translator.

not sure if we are clear about the issues involved here:
imho there are 2 tasks:
1. replace the APC with monome/BCR, and use Live (with a bidirectional APC replacement) // e.g. masquerade a monome, telling Live u have a APC
2. replace Live with another host, and use the APC as birectional midi device // e.g. show pattern states in Usine (host -> APC communication), masquerade Usine/Bidule/etc., telling the APC u have MaxForLive

what u seem to target, koala, is the first matter. i am interested in the second.
i'd be surprised if (1) or (2) could be done easily.

koalaboy · Post by **koalaboy** » Sun May 31, 2009 12:58 pm

amiga909 wrote:
koalaboy wrote:I think the only use of the handshake is to prevent any other controller using the APC40 template in Live, so you couldn't (without decoding it) use your BRC2000 etc., as a cheap APC40.

However, I don't think it affects using the APC40 with any other software, as it's just a MIDI controller. You just need to be able to have the other software work with whatever MIDI messages the APC40 puts out / accepts - you could probably use something like Bidule as a go-between/translator.
not sure if we are clear about the issues involved here:
imho there are 2 tasks:
1. replace the APC with monome/BCR, and use Live (with a bidirectional APC replacement) // e.g. masquerade a monome, telling Live u have a APC
2. replace Live with another host, and use the APC as birectional midi device // e.g. show pattern states in Usine (host -> APC communication), masquerade Usine/Bidule/etc., telling the APC u have MaxForLive

what u seem to target, koala, is the first matter. i am interested in the second.
i'd be surprised if (1) or (2) could be done easily.

(1) isn't possible, without hacking - that's why the handshake is there.

(2) I think will be possible.

amiga909 · Post by **amiga909** » Sun May 31, 2009 4:32 pm

koalaboy wrote:
(1) isn't possible, without hacking - that's why the handshake is there.

(2) I think will be possible.

for 2: found this FAQ list:

Will max for live be the only way to use the apc as a stepsequencer?
Yes.

http://forum.ableton.com//viewtopic.php?t=105268 - Jesse Terry, Ableton employee

.. so I dont think it will be easy to eg. program a stepsequencer (or a clip manager) on the APC with a plugin like Usine/Bidule, or a non-vst standalone application.

koalaboy · Post by **koalaboy** » Sun May 31, 2009 4:54 pm

Are you sure that's not just missing the words "within Ableton Live" ?

It doesn't worry me, as I'll have an APC & M4L - I don't see much reason not to in the end, as together they make an awesome combination.

amiga909 · Post by **amiga909** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 2:55 pm

koalaboy wrote:Are you sure that's not just missing the words "within Ableton Live" ?

u mean: M4L = the only APC programming facility for the APC 'within Live'?
why should this be the case? if u could control the APC with a Usine patch, it does not matter if u have cubase or Live, I reckon?

however, time will show..
its a shame thu, Akai does not seem to publish a decent midi implementation chart - there seems to be no full manual either

found this report about APC midi behavior:

I have been working with my APC40 in preparation for Max4Live's release (whenever that will be). In the mean time I have stumbled up something that confused me. I plugged my APC40 in and fired up MidiOx, and noticed when going through the buttons/faders that the APC40 makes heavy use of both the Data1 and Data2 messages for each button combination. It does not seem like these are sysex/rtm/etc. messages, but multiple data inputs per CC/note on/note off events.

http://www.cycling74.com/forums/index.p ... 3dde878756

makes me hope that its not too hard to program the APC with other software than M4L. of course, if ur a Live user M4L+APC will be an asskickin solution!

amiga909 · Post by **amiga909** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:46 pm

M4L API discussion:
http://www.midibox.org/forum/index.php/ ... #msg108463

akai apc40 for non-ableton users?