Resampling a synth for personal use -- is it legal?

[Fidelity]

I know it isn't legal to resample a wave-based synth for use in distributed sample libraries, but I have a synth that I'm going to be selling soon and I like some of the patches on there.

Would it be illegal for me to resample it for strictly my own personal use in my music and creating new patches which won't be distributed? If it is, please explain what portion of the law it violates -- I'm having a tough time figuring it out.

Thanks for any insight anyone can provide.

[thecontrolcentre]

Would it be illegal for me to resample it for strictly my own personal use in my music and creating new patches which won't be distributed?

I don't see how that would be a problem.

[sockofgold]

Of course it's legal. That's the whole point of owning the synth. If it's illegal for you to "sample" a synth you own for your own personal use, then likewise, it would have to be illegal for you to even record it digitally.

[Compyfox]

[accent mode on]Nooooo! Eet eez foh-bidden! Yuh copy zat original sample content! And thatz foh-bidden![/accent mode off]


Read this here, and start shaking heads:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 51&start=0

Doesn't matter if used in private, distributed or not... according to this longer discussion, it is a scrict no, even if recorded in content.


Oh and... IBTL!

[chj]

[accent mode on]Nooooo! Eet eez foh-bidden! Yuh copy zat original sample content! And thatz foh-bidden![/accent mode off]


Read this here, and start shaking heads:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 51&start=0

Doesn't matter if used in private, distributed or not... according to this longer discussion, it is a scrict no, even if recorded in content.


Oh and... IBTL!

That discussion was all about redistributing a sample library based on a sample based instrument. As the OP stated, this would be illegal.

I know it isn't legal to resample a wave-based synth for use in distributed sample libraries.

However, of course you can use a sample based instrument to create sounds/samples for your own use. Why would you buy one if you couldn't use it and record it? Of course you can use a sampled instrument to record and sell original music/creative work. Why would any professional musician buy one if you couldn't. In case the phrase "sample library" is ambiguous, you could even record a melody loops sample library and sell it, that would be fine.

You've come away from that other thread thinking you can't record a sample based instrument, period. That's not the case. What you can't do is record and redistribute a sample library that is meant to be played as an instrument, the same way the original sample based instrument is meant to be played. Basically you can't redistribute the samples just by playing the sampled based instrument and recording it. There may be some situations that are a grey area, but it's far from your conclusion that you can't ever record a sample based instrument, period.

[lagavulin16]

So I can buy a hardware synthesizer, sample it, sell it, and keep the samples.

I can't buy Kontakt, sample it, sell kontakt, and keep the samples.

I wonder if I can buy Kontakt, sample it, modify the sounds significantly, then sell kontakt and keep the samples.

Not really an issue for me as I don't really use sampled sounds much these days, and I don't plan on selling the ones I do use.

[sockofgold]

nevermind.

[Rock Hardbuns]

However, of course you can use a sample based instrument to create sounds/samples for your own use. Why would you buy one if you couldn't use it and record it? Of course you can use a sampled instrument to record and sell original music.

That's kind of the thing missing from that other thread. Lots of people claiming knowledge, so I would like to know, at what point does copyright transfer from Roland to me when I play a JD rompler?

And this is a lot more tricky then people like to pretend, because if Roland has rights to the original sound, then what ever I do with it becomes a derived work, to which Roland also has rights.

If Roland does not have rights to the sound, nothing prevents me from selling a sample as is.

Anything more tricky would have to be specified in a pre-sale licensing contract. The customer would have a right to be made aware of what he is actually buying.

[chj]

So I can buy a hardware synthesizer, sample it, sell it, and keep the samples.

I can't buy Kontakt, sample it, sell kontakt, and keep the samples.

Not the same thing at all...

Actually since Fidelity is planning on selling his wav synth, this example is similar to his situation. For example, it would probably be illegal to buy a wav based synth, bring it home, sample it, then return it to the store within the store's return policy time.

But in reality Fidelity, in this hypothetical situation and yours, just realize that you will NEVER ever get called out for it. No sample police are going to knock down your door and ask to see the original wav based synth certain samples on your hard drive came from.

[chj]

However, of course you can use a sample based instrument to create sounds/samples for your own use. Why would you buy one if you couldn't use it and record it? Of course you can use a sampled instrument to record and sell original music.

That's kind of the thing missing from that other thread. Lots of people claiming knowledge, so I would like to know, at what point does copyright transfer from Roland to me when I play a JD rompler?

The point that shifts is creative work. I think most licenses will state something like, you may not redistribute the sounds or samples, but you are free to use this product for your own creative work. Again, there may be some grey area, how much work is creative work, but that's the general idea.

[Fidelity]

However, of course you can use a sample based instrument to create sounds/samples for your own use. Why would you buy one if you couldn't use it and record it? Of course you can use a sampled instrument to record and sell original music.

That's kind of the thing missing from that other thread. Lots of people claiming knowledge, so I would like to know, at what point does copyright transfer from Roland to me when I play a JD rompler?

The point that shifts is creative work. I think most licenses will state something like, you may not redistribute the sounds or samples, but you are free to use this product for your own creative work. Again, there may be some grey area, how much work is creative work, but that's the general idea.

So the synth is a license in and of itself?

This whole thing is so confusing...any lawyers want to chime in?

[sockofgold]

So I can buy a hardware synthesizer, sample it, sell it, and keep the samples.

I can't buy Kontakt, sample it, sell kontakt, and keep the samples.

Not the same thing at all...

Actually since Fidelity is planning on selling his wav synth, this example is similar to his situation. For example, it would probably be illegal to buy a wav based synth, bring it home, sample it, then return it to the store within the store's return policy time.

But in reality Fidelity, in this hypothetical situation and yours, just realize that you will NEVER ever get called out for it. No sample police are going to knock down your door and ask to see the original wav based synth certain samples on your hard drive came from.

Right. I missed that part originally. You quoted me right before I edited out my original comment.

My honest advice: just do it. No synth manufacturer is EVER going to take the time to check whether:

A.) You are, in fact, using their synth
B.) You have the legal right to do so

The only way it could possibly happen is if it's a small/blood-thirsty dev like some of them around here, but they would still have to prove that you used their synth to begin with, which, let's face it, would be just a couple hairs short of impossible. Just make music and stop worrying about this junk.

edit: However, if you are planning on selling the samples you make, that's a completely different ballgame. I can't keep track of what you want.

[sockofgold]

So I can buy a hardware synthesizer, sample it, sell it, and keep the samples.

I can't buy Kontakt, sample it, sell kontakt, and keep the samples.

Not the same thing at all...

Actually since Fidelity is planning on selling his wav synth, this example is similar to his situation. For example, it would probably be illegal to buy a wav based synth, bring it home, sample it, then return it to the store within the store's return policy time.

But in reality Fidelity, in this hypothetical situation and yours, just realize that you will NEVER ever get called out for it. No sample police are going to knock down your door and ask to see the original wav based synth certain samples on your hard drive came from.

Ok, sorry. I just repeated pretty much exactly what you said here. I hadn't read the entire thread. Anyway, I agree with your second paragraph there wholeheartedly.

[Rock Hardbuns]

The point that shifts is creative work. I think most licenses will state something like, you may not redistribute the sounds or samples, but you are free to use this product for your own creative work. Again, there may be some gray area, how much work is creative work, but that's the general idea.

Well, it's just that I have bought about 10 romplers in my time, an none of them came with licenses. And I certainly wasn't required to sign anything.
So, I wonder, whos general idea is this and where are the licensing agreements or legal precedents. I have searched and found none.

Sorry to badger you. It's just that people keep throwing this stuff around, but it's just an echo chamber as far as I can tell.

[Fidelity]

The point that shifts is creative work. I think most licenses will state something like, you may not redistribute the sounds or samples, but you are free to use this product for your own creative work. Again, there may be some gray area, how much work is creative work, but that's the general idea.

Well, it's just that I have bought about 10 romplers in my time, an none of them came with licenses. And I certainly wasn't required to sign anything.
So, I wonder, whos general idea is this and where are the licensing agreements or legal precedents. I have searched and found none.

Sorry to badger you. It's just that people keep throwing this stuff around, but it's just an echo chamber as far as I can tell.

If anything covers it, the DMCA probably does. Sockofgold - all I'm trying to do is resample some pad sounds off a hardware synth -- not a software synth -- so that I can use them in kontakt after i sell it. I really don't see how this could be illegal (isn't there a clause somewhere in the law from the 80s about recording stuff for personal use) -- except that I'd be using the sound in my own music, which changes the scope slightly. I'm on the edge about buying autosampler -- I'm not going to go out and spend close to $200 after tax to find out I can't even legally use it on hardware synths for my own use -- my primary purpose for buying it.

I think that a lot of people may be confusing legality with morality -- and in this case, I think the morality is more of a personal morality than a social one -- and as such, it's a very individual matter that although everyone seems to feel inclined to share their personal opinion on (myself included), is very different from the original question -- is it legal?