Change of scale during song

[FarleyCZ]

Hi.

I'm sorry if I'm not first who askes this question, but:

I have been studying few simple popsongs to ensure that my view to problem of scales is correct.

I don't remember names of scales, but i realize how they look on keyboard. So I studied few playing tutorials.

In One Republic - Apologize ... there is one scale for whole song
In Celine Dion - My Heart Will Go On too, just at the end, when whole song is trasposed, scale is changing of course.
Daniel Powter - Bad Day ... again whole song in one scale.

But then I found: O-Town All Or Nothing.

It looked so easy. The openig was whole in white keys (c major i believe). But In verse he just juped out of scale somewhere else! I would understand if it was some dark song and he chandged scale for some long time ... but he didin't. He just jumped for sec out of scale and then he came back.

Here it is:

Now please, can someone tell me how is it possible and how can I do that in my songs?

Tanks for any reply from anybody.

[trewq]

Hi,

The out-of-scale part lasted for 3 chords: Am, E, F, which is A harmonic minor(sharp the G in C major). The E is the only chord with the out-of-scale note. Am is the 'pivot chord' (look this up).

So it goes C, G, Am, Em, F
And then :C, G, Am, E, F

The E is probably substituted with a G# dim to make it sound better.

[FarleyCZ]

I need to look on the video again and analyze chords, but as I read your reply, he just found chord which was same for two scales (pivot chord) and switched here to another similar scale? Am I right?

[ariston]

There are basically two ways to approach this:

one: read up on the "rules" of harmony, and learn to your detriment that music is, in reality, just mathematics. There are plenty of do's and dont's which you "have" to observe, otherwise what you're playing won't be "right", so be very very careful which chord you choose, or you'll do it "wrong".

two: use your ears, experiment. Get to know those old campfire stand-by harmonies, then change them. Play a G# instead of a G in a C chord, and see how that sounds. Play a very simple melody, and try to change the underlying chords. Don't be afraid of atonality; some changes will sound like rubbish, others will make you go "wow". In time, you'll get a good feel for chord changes, and you won't have to bother with the above mentioned rules (unless you're trying to impress some music professor or the prog police, that is).

John McLaughlin, a musician of some note, spent a year doing just this. AFTER learning his instrument and studying music.

[Written in fond memory of my classes in music theory... r.i.p.]

[FarleyCZ]

I know, but as i said. These changes I try to do by years sounds like "huge change of atmosphere". Everytime I try it it sound like blues or something. This use is really natural and doesn't change mood of song too much. And i was wondering how to approach this small changes.

[trewq]

Its a subtle change cause it does not change the structure of the progression in C (except for the sharpened G): I V vi iii IV, and when the key changes at vi, it becomes i V VI (Am E F). And as it pivots on vi to get to A harmonic minor, it then pivots on VI to get back to C Major - thats 'symmetry', another dreaded theory term.

[Gamma-UT]

It's probably a bit more convenient to look at the G# as an Ab. (The sheet music tab gives it as an Ab chord, although it looks as though he plays Ab6 and then goes straight back to a C major scale). This might seem a bit nitpicky but it points to a common songwriting technique which is the 'borrowed bVI' and works very well in pop tunes (as well as the borrowed bIII). In a different context, the Ab is known as the Peggy Sue chord for fairly obvious reasons.

By playing an Eb or Ab within a regular C major tune, you can get some more colour and, used right, a bit more emotion into the song.

The other trick you'll find used pretty commonly is the 'secondary dominant', where you use a V-I cadence from a different key without shifting wholesale into the other key.

[FarleyCZ]

Thank you for all of comments.

But you know ... I learn all my music theory by myself, so could you please explain it to me a little bit more "fool proof"?

Ok. He jumped to another scale. It's a pretty similar scale to a C major scale, so changes wasn't too drastical.

But let say I play some chords. Only think I know about them is how look their actual scale on keyboard. (I didn't even analyze what are names of the chord.) I Like them, but they start to be a bit boring. Is there any way to tell my self: "There just could be nice to change the scale for a while" and do it? Something which helps me to choose right scale to jump like a scale helps me to choose a tone? Or it's really just "try and decide"?

[Gamma-UT]

But you know ... I learn all my music theory by myself, so could you please explain it to me a little bit more "fool proof"?

Ok. He jumped to another scale. It's a pretty similar scale to a C major scale, so changes wasn't too drastical.

But let say I play some chords. I Like them, but they start to be a bit boring. Is there any way to tell my self: "There just could be nice to change scale for a while" and do it? Something which helps me to choose right scale to jump like a scale helps me to choose a tone? Or it's really just "try and decide"?

The bad news is that it will be a case of 'try and decide' unless you learn a bit of theory. What the theory does for you is let you predict what things are likely to work in a chord progression. There's nothing wrong with a bit of try and decide if theory doesn't cover it but the chances are that, if it's pop music, somebody has done it and found a name for it.

Having said that, if you want something a bit different to a regular chord progression on a C major scale, try different major chords around E and A (eg Eb major - Eb, G, Bb; E major - E, G#, B; Ab major - Ab, C, Eb; A major - A, C#, E). That should keep you busy for a while. Try following the E major with a regular A minor and the A major with a G major chord.

[trewq]

In the video, its actually F dim (G# B F) thats played at the begining cause F is in the melody, and later it substitutes it with a G# dim. Any triad with G# note, including E, in A harmonic minor will do depending on the melody at that point.

[FarleyCZ]

Why this c major harmonic scale does not fit to circle of fifths like normal major/minor scales?

[jancivil]

In the video, its actually F dim (G# B F) thats played at the begining cause F is in the melody, and later it substitutes it with a G# dim. Any triad with G# note, including E, in A harmonic minor will do depending on the melody at that point.

just to clarify for the whole class: F diminished is a triad consisting of minor *thirds*, with F as the root.
F to G, whether the G is a sharp, a flat, or not modified, is a *second*.

F.
Ab.
Cb.

two minor thirds adds up to a diminished fifth, here: F to Cb.

F to B is an augmented fourth.
"G# B F", isn't really an F diminished; however:
G# B D F is a G# diminished seventh, four minor thirds. That is the vii7 chord in A (harmonic) minor, aka <vii7 of vi>, a secondary dominant in C major.

as you see there, diminished chords are imminently interchangeable, of course, but it's not the best idea to be unclear on spelling if one is going to pursue a real understanding of the function of them.

for instance, a for real F diminished can pivot you to some other keys which will be clear to someone who sees it's real spelling.

[Nystul]

In the video, its actually F dim (G# B F) thats played at the begining cause F is in the melody, and later it substitutes it with a G# dim. Any triad with G# note, including E, in A harmonic minor will do depending on the melody at that point.

It's not, though. That might work, but what he plays is always Ab-C, not G#-B. You might say it is using F melodic minor as the resource there rather than A harmonic minor. If he played it as you wrote it, it would sound much more ominous than it actually does.

[FarleyCZ]

I'm confused now. My friend just for fun switched in song from C major to G major. He knows nothing about scales etc .. just did it as experiment.

But almost everytime I jump out of scale it sounds bad. He just changed note in bassline up to F# just from F while rest was in c major. How can this work? I thought one half of tone is disharmonic interval!!! (i feel like knowing less is sometimes better more to know = more to lost in)

I really don't know whats wrong with me, but mostly everytime i try to change scale during song it sounds just disharmonical or (if i just improvise with keyboard) it sounds like sample from some very complex ununderstandable jazz song. But I still can't figure out how to switch scales to sound good, popy, edgy etc... (like in o-town song)

Even when I try to find chord with same notes in both scales ... when first note of second scale plays ... BANG ... disharmonical again.

I suppose there is not only one way ... but i can't fugre out even one of them logically. Just by experimenting.

I have readen that 5 half-tones and 7 half-tones intervals are good sounding intervals for human ear. Could this be used for switch scales?

I just don't believe there is no way how to do jump between scales without counting intervals, drawing them into grids or sh*t like that. Look at jazz musicans. They are in different scales every second, even in their most popy sounding songs like "fly me to the moon"! Do they have to count intervals in their chords etc? There must be some easy way to "mix" the scales ...

Isn't there for example just some rule or point whitch would help me with it?

[trewq]

I've opened up a can of worms!

I spelled F dim like that because it was in the context of the A harmonic minor.
The correct spelling may reflect the formula 1 b3 b5, but that just seems a constraint to me when the scales don't have that spelling(hmm where can I find a scale with a Cb?) So how does spelling it F Ab Cb help us in knowing where it can be used as a pivot chord? Why not let it enharmonically suite the keys you are in?



F melodic minor? what chords in the song come from this scale?