KVR Audio

leighbeynon · Post by **leighbeynon** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:05 am

so i want to get some books or maybe charts to help me create some nice chord progressions, i dont mind if this takes me a long time to acheive,
id just like to be able to figure them out myself,

im into neo soul and soulful house, so i think im after jazz chords, but im pretty sure i dont just want to play lots of different min 13ths etc
so if anyone has some good resources that i could read and study to help me that would be really apprecaited !

thanks leigh

leighbeynon · Post by **leighbeynon** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:26 am

heres a good example of a few tracks, maybe someone could tell me what chords are used so i can see where the progressions goes, i understand the roman numeral system of progressions,

track 5
http://www.traxsource.com/index.php?act ... s&cv=44080

mix 1
http://www.traxsource.com/index.php?act ... s&cv=42468

wrench45us · Post by **wrench45us** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:10 pm

I'm sure there are some narrow niche books on new-soul out there somewhere (if Hal Leonard doesn't have one now there'll be one coming), but you may want a broader background on how/why progressions work, esp r'n'b and lite jazz

so that all goes back to basic theory books
I'm suggesting Mark Levine's Jazz Theory book these days since it has a good historical perspective and has managed to fill in some gaps I had coming up through other books that were more narrowly focused

seacouch · Post by **seacouch** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:40 pm

Try looking up the "Hal Leonard Keyboard Style Series" books on Amazon. You might find them useful.

Also check out books on common intro and turnaround progressions, for instance:
http://www.amazon.com/Intros-Endings-Tu ... pd_sim_b_8

jcrisman · Post by **jcrisman** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:23 pm

leighbeynon wrote:so i want to get some books or maybe charts to help me create some nice chord progressions, i dont mind if this takes me a long time to acheive,
id just like to be able to figure them out myself,

im into neo soul and soulful house, so i think im after jazz chords, but im pretty sure i dont just want to play lots of different min 13ths etc
so if anyone has some good resources that i could read and study to help me that would be really apprecaited !

thanks leigh

Here are a few links that may point you in the right direction:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chord_progression

http://www.dolmetsch.com/introduction.htm (particularly lessons 16-17, 40, and 44)

Lesson 44 is "Marc Sabatella's Jazz Improvisation Almanac" ( http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory44.htm ), which may be particularly useful to you.

ecsmix · Post by **ecsmix** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:28 pm

We need psenior here...He will tell you the progression and do an analysis for you/us.
He's great on that.
Do a search on a forum you will find some analysis posts, very good info there.

I am studying some thing, Psenior metioned the Barry Harris methods, maybe someone or even Psenior could clarify them better for us.

Teaching the Barry Harris methods here would be a good Christmas present for all of us.

Another good way is analyzing well known jazz/boosa nova tracks...however they are often analyzed with notation and I am CAN'T READ...need to work on that....one of my resolutions for 2010.
Maybe girl from Ipanema or any Tom Jobim songs, I think desafinado would be a very complex music theory class.

Another great guy doing this kind of work and has a books about the same issues you wanna learn is Gary Ewer, and he is a member here as well.
He explain things that non musicians can understand as well.
Check it out:
http://garyewer.wordpress.com/

leighbeynon · Post by **leighbeynon** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 1:20 pm

thanks guys some good info for me to read up on here, i can read music so i dont mind books with notation,

i would just like to find a good starting point to create progressions,
i asked a jazz guys about this and he said he loves the ii-v-i progressions

at the time that didnt really mean anything to me but i understand this now
just depends what key he is talking about,

all i know is it all sounds like 9ths and 11ths in minor to me,

13th Element · Post by **13th Element** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:52 pm

wrench45us wrote:I'm sure there are some narrow niche books on new-soul out there somewhere (if Hal Leonard doesn't have one now there'll be one coming), but you may want a broader background on how/why progressions work, esp r'n'b and lite jazz

so that all goes back to basic theory books
I'm suggesting Mark Levine's Jazz Theory book these days since it has a good historical perspective and has managed to fill in some gaps I had coming up through other books that were more narrowly focused

I agee with wrench45us, Mark Levine's jazz theory will give you a good insight as Neo-soul, R&B, Gospel etc have roots in jazz........PM me if you'd like the ebook......

psenior · Post by **psenior** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:31 pm

Hi Leigh,

I like these songs you have chosen. That's really my style of music as well. I like how I have been volunteered to give you all the chord changes, etc. by our good friend, ecsmix.

Well, I'm going to have to decline this time. I'll tell you why.

These two songs are rather complicated. I mean, I can analyze them but it would take me probably 2-3 hours and I just don't have time. Also, in the past, I have sent you some original MIDI house music files for you to analyze and never got back any response. This shows a lack of willingness on your part to do the work needed to get to where you want to be. Other posters on here, such as jancivil, have mentioned similar concerns to you. I have given this same MIDI file to ecsmix and he got back to me within 24 hours with a nearly 100% accurate analysis. There is no point in me giving you what amounts to free music lessons if I get no feedback whatsoever.

These type of tunes are mostly 9th, 11ths, 13ths, etc. so you have that much correct. You are probably getting lost when those altered dominant chords are popping up. You say they are in a minor key. Can you tell me the minor key these songs are in? That took me about 2 minutes to figure out. Can you tell me what the main notes of the bass line are? That's where I have to start with these type of intricate jazz/dance songs, usually. Can you tell me what you think the first couple of chords are? I really need to see some serious effort on your part, dude.

This music reminded me very much of one of my favorite bands, Incognito. I did a quick Google search and found the following resource for you to analyze and learn from: http://www.incognito.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6019. I will probably be taking a very close look at this material myself when I get the time.

Other resources that might be useful to you is sheet music of any old '70's disco music. I was listening to the version of "Copacabana" by Barry Manilow at a bowling alley the other day and that freaking song had some short musical sections in there that were straight up 100% jazz/house. Maybe ecsmix can provide you some links to this type of material.

Oh yeah, do a search on all my old posts on here. I've done lots of analysis for lots of posters of other similar, but less complicated, songs.

leighbeynon · Post by **leighbeynon** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 6:57 pm

firstly i must appologise for not getting back to you, i have double checked my pms and cant seem to find any midi files from you at all regarding chords, this would be a fantastic music exercise for me to do, there is no reason at all i would ignore you or not attempt to analyse the midi files, i believe this would be very beneficial for me, i am totally willing to work hard at this, im having piano lessons, bt my teacher is very traditional only plays from music or busking books and has no interest in music theory or composing,

i tried to expalin the roman numberals system to him as i had read about this on here and he said it was pointless, you just need to learn all scales and forget the roman numberals, to me i thought this is how progressions are created.

i cant believe your into incognito, i love these guys seen them live many times along wit brand new heavies and soul 2 soul & fat back band simply amazing artists, the chord work on incognito is very very much like the chords used in the house tracks i posted as an example,

i understand if you feel im lazy or ignorant but i would love to work on those midi files over xmas !!

thank you leigh

i will also check out the books people have mentioned and would love the e-book as i can read this on my dinner break daily !

psenior · Post by **psenior** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 9:44 pm

Hi Leigh,

Thanks for the clarification. This is pretty much a cut & paste of the PM I sent you back in October. Here's the link to the files: http://www.turboupload.com/ogrr825lqgxk ... d.zip.html

The tracks are at a tempo of 120 bpm. Set your DAW to this tempo, drop the two files in, set the keyboard track to a Rhodes patch or something similar, and press play. Try to figure out the key, the names of the 6 different chords, and what your Roman numeral analysis would be. Post your answer and I will check it.

Anyone reading this thread is welcome to try this little exercise as a fun learning experience. I'd really like to get people connecting their ears with their brains (i.e. music theory) more, and using MIDI files is a great way to do it.

leighbeynon · Post by **leighbeynon** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:00 am

ok ill download these now and have a go at finding the chord names, my teacher basically told me to go through the inversions to work out what chords are, so ill give this a go and post back tomorrow ! thanks for sending this exercise, i do find this quite interesting

leighbeynon · Post by **leighbeynon** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:42 am

ok im actually struggling with these, i think i figured out 3 so far

Bb m7, b6, Am7

im gonna try and work on the rest, not sure if im right as i tried to work them out through the inversions, but maybe this isnt a great method im using

lunatic · Post by **lunatic** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:03 pm

psenior wrote: Thanks for the clarification. This is pretty much a cut & paste of the PM I sent you back in October. Here's the link to the files: http://www.turboupload.com/ogrr825lqgxk ... d.zip.html

[...]
Anyone reading this thread is welcome to try this little exercise as a fun learning experience. I'd really like to get people connecting their ears with their brains (i.e. music theory) more, and using MIDI files is a great way to do it.

Hi, it's a great idea, I would like to join but I can't download the file through turboupload.

Please someone help me out with an upload to another site.
Thanks!

ecsmix · Post by **ecsmix** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:27 pm

psenior wrote:Hi Leigh,

I like these songs you have chosen. That's really my style of music as well. I like how I have been volunteered to give you all the chord changes, etc. by our good friend, ecsmix. Well, I'm going to have to decline this time. I'll tell you why.

These two songs are rather complicated. I mean, I can analyze them but it would take me probably 2-3 hours and I just don't have time. Also, in the past, I have sent you some original MIDI house music files for you to analyze and never got back any response. This shows a lack of willingness on your part to do the work needed to get to where you want to be. Other posters on here, such as jancivil, have mentioned similar concerns to you. I have given this same MIDI file to ecsmix and he got back to me within 24 hours with a nearly 100% accurate analysis. There is no point in me giving you what amounts to free music lessons if I get no feedback whatsoever.

These type of tunes are mostly 9th, 11ths, 13ths, etc. so you have that much correct. You are probably getting lost when those altered dominant chords are popping up. You say they are in a minor key. Can you tell me the minor key these songs are in? That took me about 2 minutes to figure out. Can you tell me what the main notes of the bass line are? That's where I have to start with these type of intricate jazz/dance songs, usually. Can you tell me what you think the first couple of chords are? I really need to see some serious effort on your part, dude.

This music reminded me very much of one of my favorite bands, Incognito. I did a quick Google search and found the following resource for you to analyze and learn from: http://www.incognito.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6019. I will probably be taking a very close look at this material myself when I get the time.

Other resources that might be useful to you is sheet music of any old '70's disco music. I was listening to the version of "Copacabana" by Barry Manilow at a bowling alley the other day and that freaking song had some short musical sections in there that were straight up 100% jazz/house. Maybe ecsmix can provide you some links to this type of material.

Oh yeah, do a search on all my old posts on here. I've done lots of analysis for lots of posters of other similar, but less complicated, songs.

As always your posts are priceless!!!
When you have time would be awesome do some Incognito ,brand new heavies,Jamiroquai analysis, whatever you feel confortable.

I will ask for Santa a post explaining the Barry Harris' methods.

@leighbeynon, as I learned here with the masters, sometimes forget about the chords and just analyse them, in psenior midi you have to pay attention how the voices(single notes) on the chords relates to each other. So you can find out the next chord in the sequence.
After that discover the actually chords names, find out the scale, and put the roman numerals,so you know the progression.
As psenior told you and it's truth, soulfull house/jazz house is all about 9th,11th,13ths.
example in C major scale: C(I) D(ii and 9th) E(iii) F(IV and 11th) G(V) A(vi and 13th) B(VII) , FOR VIII go back to C.
In major scale the VI is the relative Minor(same notes).(Psenior might ask you that.) In minor scale is the 3rd.

So you construct Cmajor 13th is 1+3+5+7+9+11+13 = ???? you tell us.
tip:http://www.zebrakeys.com/lessons/advanced/chords/?id=49

from this construction you deconstruct and form maj7th,maj9th and 11th.

I my opinion learning jazz is the way to go for house music in general.

a better understanding of progressions