Man Gong

[xtp]

the last day or so I have been practising against a very simple chord movement I recorded some time ago.

C13,Em

I worked out the scale I have been improvising to this chord sequence.

After some internet research I have found it is a pentatonic mode called Man Gong.

The notes being.

E, G, A, C, D, E

Has any one here worked with this mode, that would like to discuss it, add comment about it or any thing of interest pertaining to it.

[tapper mike]

Pentatonics are modal too.
It is the C major pentatonic.

[jancivil]

*man gong* itself (ca 15th c) wasn't derived on a piano. in fact it appears to be an antique tuning (a mode of *Huo Lin*) which is approximated here. it doesn't automatically sound from the basis of 'C (major penatonic)', which is to say C is the acoustical basis or root.

when you play it on a piano it may as well be 'C major penatonic', in objective terms. The vibrations that you get using that set in the original temperament (to give E as a bottom) are not necessarily present on a piano.
on an ET instrument, the lack of the perfect fifth B makes it problematic for our ears to hear E as root (some of this is acoustics (the piano has one true interval acousticall, the perfect fifth; all other intervals are compromised - compared to simple ratios found in the harmonic series - to produce that phenomenon as much as possible), much is that we are entrained. "This *is* C maj. pentatonic" comes from that entrained perspective).

and once you apply chords derived from equal temperament, it probably is 'C maj. pent.' Or 'what center?' is ambiguous... on a guitar with some vibrato and bends it could be an E scale, who knows until you hear it.

[xtp]

*man gong* itself (ca 15th c) wasn't derived on a piano. in fact it appears to be an antique tuning (a mode of *Huo Lin*) which is approximated here. it doesn't automatically sound from the basis of 'C (major penatonic)', which is to say C is the acoustical basis or root.

That was interesting, it led me to this page.

http://www.silkqin.com/02qnpu/07sqmp/sq11hl.htm

Pentatonics are modal too.
It is the C major pentatonic.

did you mean the scale i am using is a C maj pentatonic.

Its constructed of; m3, T, m3, T, T

isn't a major pentatonic; T, T, m3, T, m3

which would mean in the key of C, the scale I am using would be

C, Eb, F, Ab, Bb , C

or I have I misunderstood.

[bugs]

Pentatonic Major is pentatonic major irrespective of key. C, Eb, F, Ab, Bb (C) is Ab Pentatonic Major.

[xtp]

Pentatonic Major is pentatonic major irrespective of key. C, Eb, F, Ab, Bb (C) is Ab Pentatonic Major.

Now I am confused when I didn't realise I was confused.

If you are saying the ManGong mode is Pentatonic major, surely that would be like saying minor pentatonic is the same as major pentatonic.

C, Eb, F, Ab, Bb, also fall in F pentatonic minor.

with reference to this page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentatonic_scale

or this one

http://docs.solfege.org:81/3.9/C/scales/pen.html

From this I would read that a pentatonic scale has 5 modes defined by its linear progression of intervals, just as for example if the scale I had use contained;

E, F, G, A, B, C, D, E

It would the be E phyrgian mode, not C maj although both contain the same notes they have a different order of scale steps.

Is there a distinction in the logic involved between a maj scale and its respective modes and that of the modes of a pentatonic scale?

@JanCivil. Really like your Hard Water composition. Actually I liked quite a few your tracks, very spacial percussion.

[jancivil]

*man gong* itself (ca 15th c) wasn't derived on a piano. in fact it appears to be an antique tuning (a mode of *Huo Lin*) which is approximated here. it doesn't automatically sound from the basis of 'C (major penatonic)', which is to say C is the acoustical basis or root.

That was interesting, it led me to this page.

http://www.silkqin.com/02qnpu/07sqmp/sq11hl.htm

Pentatonics are modal too.
It is the C major pentatonic.

did you mean the scale i am using is a C maj pentatonic.

Its constructed of; m3, T, m3, T, T

isn't a major pentatonic; T, T, m3, T, m3

which would mean in the key of C, the scale I am using would be

C, Eb, F, Ab, Bb , C

or I have I misunderstood.

no, that's right. 'pentatonics are modal too' is right, and you've got it, by george.

[jancivil]

Pentatonic Major is pentatonic major irrespective of key. C, Eb, F, Ab, Bb (C) is Ab Pentatonic Major.

If you are saying the ManGong mode is Pentatonic major, surely that would be like saying minor pentatonic is the same as major pentatonic. C, Eb, F, Ab, Bb, also fall in F pentatonic minor.

with reference to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentatonic_scale or http://docs.solfege.org:81/3.9/C/scales/pen.html

From this I would read that a pentatonic scale has 5 modes defined by its linear progression of intervals, just as for example if the scale I had use contained;

E, F, G, A, B, C, D, E

It would the be E phyrgian mode, not C maj although both contain the same notes they have a different order of scale steps.

Is there a distinction in the logic involved between a maj scale and its respective modes and that of the modes of a pentatonic scale?

@JanCivil. Really like your Hard Water composition. Actually I liked quite a few your tracks, very spacial percussion.

'Ab pentatonic major' is rooted on Ab. That C Eb F Ab Bb set can be called a mode of it or vice versa. A mode might have another name, such as Man Gong. I think my acoustical argument that it might not actually work like pentatonic major on the instrument it was conceived on is lost on some. Again, on a piano it's liable to come out as major pentatonic to a western listener as it lacks a perfect fifth, which is also partly a conditioned response. There are things in Asian musics that behave differently. I am not familiar with the sound of this one at all. But, if a raga were based in the 1 b3 4 b6 b7 set, that's what's real, and will NOT be considered as 'the same as the major pentatonic'; the tonic rules. Period.

you have the concept of modes pretty well sussed. modes refer to a tonic, so that's the logic of one vs another, the character is known by the way it relates to a tonic. phrygian is quite a different sound than ionian or 'major'. where a mode such as phrygian begins to 'sound like major', we've done it wrong (often putting chords to it will cause this problem). If a practitioner of 'man gong' says it's 1 b3 4 b6 b7, that's likely what it is. Major Pentatonic is another mode of that same set.


thanks, glad you appreciate. the new one MRKXXZ City is pretty sick too.