Me vs. scales and key and melody and...

[RandolphCarter]

Hello guys:

What's the exact difference between key and scale? I understand that key is the "tonality" of the song, and a scale is more like a palette to draw notes from, but for example, can a song be in D phyrgian? If so, what's the point in them being differentiated?

When writing a chord progression: do you have to draw each note from the scale of the key (see my confusion above) you're in? Like, imagine I'm in D phyrgian: do I have to use only notes from D phyrgian to build the chords? The reason I'm asking this is because sometimes I get advice like "play with the fifth", "introduce some diminished/whatever chords to bring tension/make it more interesting". But then I look at the scale and think "damn, can't do that, the flat fifth is not on this scale". From what I understand, if you "use" that sort of thing, you're introducing "chomaticism" right? Like, "borrowing" notes from other scales. But then, how do I know when to do that, and when I'm going to stray away from the scale/key too much and make my use of a certain scale irrelevant?


On that point, what's the point of saying you're using the chormatic scale? If you're using all twelve semitones, isn't it like not restricting yourself to a certain scale?

Any tips on "training my ear" to recognize chords? I'm trying to figure out the chords to a tune, but I get lost on the exact voicings, I would like to learn to recognize intervals and chords, but it sounds difficult once I get away from basic triads and 7th chords.

Last question: any good online tutorials or lessons to get my feet on writing melodies based on different scales, including adding variation, etc? I was trying to write a melody the other day, and it sounded repetitive, bizarre (not in a good IDM way, but in a, "why the hell does it start doing all these things" way)... would like to get some pointers.


THanks a lot in advance

[A.M. Gold]

Hmmm, a lot of questions there, but all good ones. Going out of key seems to be a popular subject around here lately and you'll find a couple other threads that go into it near the top.

It's true you can have multiple keys all using the same scale, so what defines the key is how you use the scale. Emphasis on certain notes will make the listener hear that scale as a certain key. The simplest example is using A instead of C in the all-white-keys scale as the root makes it a minor scale instead of major.

What makes it the root---really just tending to go back to it more often than most other notes, ending sections of the piece on it (i.e. resolving to it), using "cadences", which are little progressions that lead strongly back to the home chord. Also using a lot of interplay between the 5th scale degree (the chord built on the 5th note) and the root chord will help establish that key. In C it's a G major, in A minor it's an E minor. The same goes for all the modes, as far as I know.

Going out of key, either briefly or in the sense of totally changing key is a very complex question and it's the kind of thing that people study in music theory classes, sometimes for years. One thing you can do as an easy rule of thumb is change key according to the circle of fifths/fourths. That works because each degree on the circle changes the scale by only one note (e.g. there are all white notes in C, but there is one sharp---an F#---in G, which is the next scale on the circle).

As far as recognizing chords, I think that just has to happen by rote. Try playing more chords in your own music and you will eventually start to recognize the sound of them as you can with the basic majors, minors, and seventh chords at this point.

[C00kie]

What's the exact difference between key and scale?

My understanding is that the Key is just the root note of the piece, while the Scale says weather the melody is in plain major, minor, etc. So that further refines it.

I never really bother to look up the name of the scale I use (not relevant enough for me) but I always am aware of what key it's in.

can a song be in D phyrgian? If so, what's the point in them being differentiated?

Sure! But probably I'd probably unconciously categorise it under D Minor. The difference between the regular minor scale of D and Phrygian mode is only the B vs B flat. Imho a tiny little detail, a cherry on the pudding for some extra flavour...

imagine I'm in D phyrgian: do I have to use only notes from D phyrgian to build the chords?

No, ofcourse not. Going from Dm to Bb for instance: you then temporarily switch to another scale. No problem, you'll find a way back to the original one.

"introduce some diminished/whatever chords to bring tension/make it more interesting"

Picking certain chords for a progression is like picking words for a speech: they have to be in your active vocabulary. You need lots of training and excersize if you feel your musical vocabulary is too restricted. Or just say "Sod it, this is how I like my music to be, good enough!" Many musicians have built a healthy career on songs that use only three or four simple chords.

"borrowing" notes from other scales. [...] how do I know when to do that, and when I'm going to stray away from the scale/key too much and make my use of a certain scale irrelevant?

Composing is a bit like carving a stone statue: the statue is basically already there, you only have to cut away the redundant marble. Same with music: the first bar already tells your musical intuition what could follow in a logical manner. Or less logical, all is permitted.

what's the point of saying you're using the chormatic scale?

The composer doesn't, but the analytics do. If a piece of music strays too much away from usage of traditional scales, then you might call it chromatic. It usually implies that intervals that give harmonic context such as thirds, fourths and fifths are avoided. Well, maybe that's just inharmonic music instead of chromatic, but I'd say these are related anyway.

If you're using all twelve semitones, isn't it like not restricting yourself to a certain scale?

Not nescessarily. You can switch scale every bar if you like, but still be restricted to just a couple of (related) scales within the whole piece.

Any tips on "training my ear" to recognize chords?

Practice, practice, and do it a lot! Maybe get a little help from a chord finder now and then: http://www.gootar.com/piano/index.html

Start with analysing simple songs, and build your way up. If you come across an interesting song, then try to analyse it's chord progression, see how far you get. Maybe start a topic here about a specific song you're struggling with, to check or see what the rest of the world makes of it.

I've played around with Band-In-A-Box in the past a lot. It's a fun tool to enter just the abstract chord names you've analysed from an existing song, and if it does sound like the original then you have succeeded in analysing it properly.

[jancivil]

Hello guys:

What's the exact difference between key and scale? I understand that key is the "tonality" of the song, and a scale is more like a palette to draw notes from, but for example, can a song be in D phyrgian? If so, what's the point in them being differentiated?

D phrygian has D as a tonic; there are people who will tell you the 'key' is Bb (because they have confused the name of something for the thing of itself, by considering the key signature as if = 'key') but I don't consider that a terrifically helpful remark about the music (given your question, it wouldn't help you much in conceiving the music I don't think.). If the music contains the things that make it 'D phrygian', calling it that is a true statement. "Key of Bb"... there are real caveats to that statement where the tonic is not Bb.

[llatham]

can a song be in D phyrgian?

Yes.

Some people use the word "key" pretty haphazardly nowadays.

A "Key" (traditionally) is a set of 7 notes in a FUNCTIONAL HIERARCHY where one is promoted as the tonic, and others have subservient functions. Key and Tonality are synonymous.

A "Scale" is merely a set of notes, usually presented in ascending order with the first note having some sort of importance (such as also being the tonic of a key). Scale by the way comes from "Scala", and in Italian/Latin comes from "Ladder" - ascending steps, see?

"Mode" has a "proper" form, and a "generic" form.

A song in D Phrygian is not in the "key" of D Phrygian, but is in the Phrygian Mode with a Final of D (or you can say tonic in modern parlance, but that's why it gets confusing). In this use "mode" is an analog to "key".

Mode can also mean a specific type of traditionally named scale that's not Major or Minor - the 8 (and later 12) Ecclesiastical Modes (dorian, phrygian, etc.). In this sense, "mode" is an analog to "scale" - it's a specific type of scale.

Mode can also mean "a version of" as in D E G A C is one of the 5 pentatonic "modes" (versions) - in this sense it means a "rotated version" of a parent scale (thus the 7 modes are often seen as rotations of Major - dorian rotation 1, phrygian rotation 2, etc.).

When writing a chord progression: do you have to draw each note from the scale of the key (see my confusion above) you're in? Like, imagine I'm in D phyrgian: do I have to use only notes from D phyrgian to build the chords? The reason I'm asking this is because sometimes I get advice like "play with the fifth", "introduce some diminished/whatever chords to bring tension/make it more interesting". But then I look at the scale and think "damn, can't do that, the flat fifth is not on this scale". From what I understand, if you "use" that sort of thing, you're introducing "chomaticism" right?

Right.

Like, "borrowing" notes from other scales. But then, how do I know when to do that, and when I'm going to stray away from the scale/key too much and make my use of a certain scale irrelevant?

You have to listen to, and analyze (and play) lots of other music. Traditional music, in D Major for example, may borrow notes from the Parallel Minor (Dm) or may use essential chromaticism (from secondary keys) or non-essential chromaticism (decorative).

But, the problem with modal music is that if you borrow too much in the ways traditional key-based music did, you lose the differentiation between "D" and D Phrygian. Most people writing modal music (who want to promote a single mode) tend to stick only (or largely) to notes in the mode.

Think about Aeolian versus Minor - if you start using raised 7 in Aeolian, you're doing more of the traditional minor thing, and it's not modal anymore. So when writing modal Aeolian, you have to avoid #7 like the plague (well, it needs to be handled more carefully anyway).

On that point, what's the point of saying you're using the chormatic scale? If you're using all twelve semitones, isn't it like not restricting yourself to a certain scale?

Well, you can limit yourself to certain sets of note - Whole Tone, Octatonic, Chromatic, Pentatonic, Major, etc. to produce various effects.

Any tips on "training my ear" to recognize chords? I'm trying to figure out the chords to a tune, but I get lost on the exact voicings, I would like to learn to recognize intervals and chords, but it sounds difficult once I get away from basic triads and 7th chords.

Practice, practice, practice. It helps also to play them.

Best,
Steve

[AnalogGuy1]

Theory book

Also, I'm hardly qualified to respond to any of your questions (except the theory text!), but here's an example that makes sense to me, a guy who plays in classic rock bands with no training in theory or composition. You may be well beyond the simplicity of this response.

Don't think of accidentals as violating the key signature, or of going chromatic...think of it as a temporary modulation or chord substitution.

A C major song might have the chord progression
C / E A7 / D D7 / G7 / C
There's a lot of non-diatonic notes in those chords. But what's probably going on is a standard ii / V / I chord progression that's been really briefly modulated to the ii, so functionally it is a
I / ii-of-ii V-of-ii / ii V-of-V / V / I

Many composers take the notion of substitution one step further with swapping swapping parallel major and minor chords (like E for the Em that a ii of ii should be in my example above), subbing relative majors and minors, and subbing vi for IV's, vii's for V, and moving just the root note of some chords up a semitone like subbing a D#dim for a D. But it can often be untwisted into something very simple, like a IV-V-I or ii-V-I at its heart.

[RandolphCarter]

Hey I thought I had replied to this, sorry!

Anyway, thank you all for the useful tips people. Reading gifted musicians like you is always very helpful. Cheers

[geroyannis]

KVR is a great source of information but I think you should definitely read a book on Contemporary/Jazz harmony. It will guide you step by step in the wonderful world of scales, chords and their practical uses and functions in today's music.
There's just too many details and information to be covered in a couple of forum posts.

[jlocri]

What's the exact difference between key and scale? I understand that key is the "tonality" of the song, and a scale is more like a palette to draw notes from,

That's really all there is to it

but for example, can a song be in D phyrgian? If so, what's the point in them being differentiated?

Modes made sense before tonality existed. Back then, chromaticism only existed in certain situations and "harmony" as we know it was almost completely contrapuntal.

Uh, let me explain myself (because that's confusing even me). Imagine a song in phrygian that is full of out of key notes, like it might have a raised sixth sometimes, a raised second sometimes and sometimes it acts like your run of the mill phrygian mode. What makes this different from dorian or aeolian? Actually, nothing (edit: which is why we use the "minor" scale instead of minor modes). This is partially why our music is tonal instead of modal, along with too long didn't read reasons about harmony.

When writing a chord progression: do you have to draw each note from the scale of the key (see my confusion above) you're in?

Sort of, I like to start off with a simple-ish progression, like I IV V or something, and expand it out from there.

But then I look at the scale and think "damn, can't do that, the flat fifth is not on this scale". From what I understand, if you "use" that sort of thing, you're introducing "chomaticism" right?

Yeah, that's called chromaticism and it's always acceptable in modern music . Don't worry about making your tonality ambiguous, generally you can use your harmony to make it more distinguishable.

Edit: Let me be a bit more helpful, if you're still worried about using the "right" chromatic notes, here's a cheat for you. If your melody or voice is moving upwards, you can generally raise any note, and if its moving downwards you can lower any note. Also, sometimes it's acceptable to raise/lower a note just because that same note was lowered early, which is called a cross relation iirc. With this technique, you can do neat things like applied dominants.

On that point, what's the point of saying you're using the chormatic scale?

I've always thought of those sorts of scales, along with exotic scales, as teaching devices rather than compositional tools. Ye ole minor/major scale with accidentals is good enough for me.

Any tips on "training my ear" to recognize chords?

It gets easier if you play the piano or the guitar, after that a lot of it is dependent on "feel". Otherwise, I remember my year 10 music teacher telling me to listen to the bass to figure out the voicing. Even then, you can only really get the bass and the chord, the middle voices have always been a mystery to me.

any good online tutorials or lessons to get my feet on writing melodies based on different scales, including adding variation, etc?

The online ones are generally geared to beginners and usually don't go into the more advanced concepts, which you seem about ready for.

Otherwise, have you tried musictheory.net?