Tips on spicing up a ii-V-I?

[neueliteratur]

Hello folks,

ii-V-I are everywhere in jazz.

What do you (or other jazz musicians) do to give some variation to it, or make it less obvious, or modernize it, both harmonically and melodically? (other than the conventional substitutions)

On a side note, do you know a good technique for sounding "out" (outside of the harmony, but still sounding good) when you are on a ii-V-I in your solo?

Cheers,

[KLS]

What substitutions for this progression have you used?

Have you experimented with Coltrane changes or something similar?

[SeanKBrennan]

As above, I'm not sure what you other extensions you have tried with these chords, but a fairly common one is


ii min7 - V dom7 - I maj7

It's often a matter of just playing around with extensions where the notes of the extension aren't in the major or minor scale of the tonic key until you find something that finds interesting.

[izonin]

ii - dorian
V - half step/whole step
I - lydian, ionian

also experiment with quartal harmony for a modern (Bill Evans) sound.

[buckshead]

Get "Modern Jazz Voicings " by Ted Pease - its a must have.

[JumpingJackFlash]

ii-V-I are everywhere in jazz.

And not just in Jazz; it is a very common progression in many style of music since the 17th century.
The ii is often in first inversion; that is, with the 3rd at the bottom. Often the minor seventh is added above the root. In classical theory, this seventh should be prepared properly and resolve by moving downwards onto the 3rd of V.

Many things can be done to this classic ii7b-V7-I progression. By making the ii a major chord (sharpening the 3rd, and the 5th too in a minor key), it becomes a dominant seventh chord; this may be called a secondary dominant as it is in fact V7 of V (the dominant of the dominant).

If you flatten the root of iib (and the fifth too in a major key), you end up with a Neapolitan Sixth chord. (The fifth generally falls a semitone and the flattened root falls to the leading note).

With chord V, you can add a 9th above the bass (in addition to the seventh), making it a dominant ninth chord. The 9th is usually at the top and resolves down to the tonic.

Another thing you could do is insert the tonic chord in second inversion between iib and V. The progression then becomes ii7b--Ic-V7--I. You will find that Ic and V are very similar, in fact the chord is essentially an appoggiatura to V. In chord Ic, the root and third should resolve downwards by step.

There are many additional possibilities too!

[psenior]

I just think 5 1; tonic and dominant, not 2 5 1. I think of 2 as a suspended 5 chord. The truth is you can play any note over a dominant chord and get away with it if your rhythm is great.

I could give you a laundry list of harmonies and scales I play over a dominant chord for beautiful jazz sounds, but I don't think that will help you because it wouldn't explain why I play those things or how to apply them correctly in a given musical context. In fact, you might already know a bunch of them because some of them are very conventional. For others, I couldn't even tell you the names of the chords because they're so far out.

For you to understand why I play those things, I'd need you to understand the concepts behind 6th-diminished scales, which I've talked about in the past in this forum. They're not complicated and once you understand how to apply them, you can easily start coming up with your own unique variations of things to play over any set of chord changes.

You have always asked very good questions. I think if you were to go to jazzworkshops.com and read all the articles in the Library section, you would get much closer to the answers you seek.

[jcrisman]

Hello folks,

ii-V-I are everywhere in jazz.

What do you (or other jazz musicians) do to give some variation to it, or make it less obvious, or modernize it, both harmonically and melodically? (other than the conventional substitutions)

On a side note, do you know a good technique for sounding "out" (outside of the harmony, but still sounding good) when you are on a ii-V-I in your solo?

Cheers,

Are we talking in terms of improvisation, or are we talking about composition?

[warrior545]

everything is very nice explained,
in a simple and understandable way.

but I wanted to point your attention to another way of spicing up these kind of classic (and repeated through the years) progressions,
this technique is very simple and it is playing with the rhythm.

that means playing those chords not in their usual place or maybe play them the usual way and just move one of them, any movement of any chord will add a new dimension into the feeling of your harmony, it will add more movement but just make sure you really want and need that movement.

another way to add movement is to play a chord with arpeggio instead of all the voices together, most of the time it makes the song sound s little faster and add more movement than just displacing the chords of the progressions.

you have to remember that everything have to be taken into consideration,
for everything depends on the context and content, if it makes it better or not.

have fun making music, and don't forget to send us to listen.

great day everyone...

[Jafo]

The canonical chord spicing is iimin7 - bII7 - I, which is quite nice; common variants include iimin9 - bII9 - I6 or Iadd9. There's a chromatic descent to the bass (2 > b2 > 1), and even some tritone substitution. You can always throw in extra tones, or alter the chords -- augmented or diminished 5 is neat. In fact, augmented 5 lets you use a whole-tone scale.

[tapper mike]

If you try to go too far off stream it's not going to sound palatable.
When you are playing standards it's important not to stray too far from the melody as the tune will easily turn unrecognizable.

Stll there are plenty of ways to spice up tone.
McCoy Tyner and Bill Evans do alot with modal lines and harmonic subsitions.

Several concepts in one song

[jlocri]

My knowledge of classical and jazz progressions is that the ii - V - I thing was just an outline chord progression, with harmonies existing and moving within those chords. Guys like Schenker called this sort of thing "harmonic prolongation" and it really helps in writing jazz and classical music.

In this sense, although a lot of music uses the ii - V - I style of harmony, it generally sounds very different.

The ii is often in first inversion; that is, with the 3rd at the bottom

The inversion and voicing you use will generally depend on the situation, so it's difficult to say that one inversion is more common than another. Especially since styles like jazz use ii and IV chords in the same way as I and V chords. You do seem pretty knowledgeable though .

Also, the second inversion was almost never used outside of cadences, secondary dominants and as passing chords. In fact, some classical harmony textbooks "forbid" it.

But you're right about seventh chords. The idea originated with a note from the previous chord being kept, or "suspended," until the next chord came in. But, jazz always follow this convention, a lot of seventh chords formed in jazz seem to come from things like deliberate parallel fifths (probably for the sake of orchestration).

[wrench45us]

most jazz harmony books are full of the variations on this progression.
It's a good question,. but the answer has occupied a lot of people for a long time, so it's difficult to answer esp on a forum
look up backcycling and tritone substitution for starters

and 'best practices' evolve -- some book I have somewhere has the original changes for 'I Got Rhythm' -- which is a standard in the world of ii V I -- and 2 alternate charts indicating how substitution styles have changed over time

[ttw]

The ii-V-I framework can also be varied by extension. For example, one can insert another chord (or chords) between the ii and the V. A common (CPP) pattern is ii6-I64-V-I (where the 6-4 actually acts as a neighbor the the 5-3 of the V; the I64 has (in this framework) a strong tendency to resolve to the V. Another possibility is to insert one of the augmented sixths (chords build on the flattened sixth degree of the prevailing harmony) between the ii6 and the V (or even before the I64). One may then get the pattern ii6-A6-I64-V7-I or the like. A pettern like ii6-A6-V-I is useful depending on the voice leading desired.

More extensions are possible, ii6-i6-ii6-[A6]-[I64]-V[7]-I (where the stuff in brackets is optional) is possible pattern. This pattern could be started with a ii-i6-ii6 pattern (makes for a rising bass line).

Another possibility is to exploit the "Neapolitan Sixth" chord. This is a bii6 chord (F-Ab-Db-F in the key of C-major or c-minor). This chord can either substitute for the ii6 or follow it.

The "deceptive" cadence is another possibility; it's often used to extend the ii6-V7-I pattern into ii6-V7-vi. This doesn't (in general) end a piece, but it can be followed by a ii-V-I pattern (extended or not) again.

Not really part of the cadence but often useful is the put a VI or VI7 before the ii.

The longer extensions tend to seem like part of the overall structure of the music, not just a spiced-up ending.

[cryophonik]

I like the sound of:

ii7 | V7sus V7 | Imaj7

or:

ii7 | V7sus V7 | vi9