Hi Guys
Im just starting to learn music theory but coming up with good chord riffs is driving me bananas. Im terrible at playing piano so trying to get a flow going is just not happening my fingers are refusing to co-operate and i have to stop to look up the keys for each chord. Is there anyone else completly unable to play the piano but able to get a good riff going none the less and can you let me know how you do it without the use of chord generators?
Im thinking that I can just use the tonic key of each chord to get started and then just expand those out to triads or whatever once I'm happy or am I barking up the wrong tree with this? Im not looking for any really complex progressions just enough to get a nice house groove going.
Also when im reading chord progression charts Im not sure what I should be doing with the roman numerals. If the progression is for example i-iv-v is this tellig me my progression should be like i-i-i-iv-iv-iv-v-v-v-i or can I just randomly use them like i-iv-i-v-v-v-iv-iv-i-i
Chord progression techniques??
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- KVRist
- 149 posts since 3 Nov, 2010
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- KVRAF
- 6388 posts since 8 Jun, 2009
You're way better off with a chord generator/prototyper. You might get away with this for doing trance as the underlying chords are usually pretty simple and often not even full triads. House, particularly funky or deep, uses extended chords, things like C11, C6/9 etc: all the interest is above the root note. There might not even be a root note in the right-hand part. The progressions might not be complicated, but the individual chords can be more involved. So the generator is your best bet if you can't play the chords well.blindasfcuk wrote:Hi Guys
Im just starting to learn music theory but coming up with good chord riffs is driving me bananas. Im terrible at playing piano so trying to get a flow going is just not happening my fingers are refusing to co-operate and i have to stop to look up the keys for each chord. Is there anyone else completly unable to play the piano but able to get a good riff going none the less and can you let me know how you do it without the use of chord generators?
Im thinking that I can just use the tonic key of each chord to get started and then just expand those out to triads or whatever once I'm happy or am I barking up the wrong tree with this? Im not looking for any really complex progressions just enough to get a nice house groove going.
If it's on a chart, they should be in order. But there's nothing wrong with trying the other sequences out to see what happens.blindasfcuk wrote:Also when im reading chord progression charts Im not sure what I should be doing with the roman numerals. If the progression is for example i-iv-v is this tellig me my progression should be like i-i-i-iv-iv-iv-v-v-v-i or can I just randomly use them like i-iv-i-v-v-v-iv-iv-i-i
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 149 posts since 3 Nov, 2010
I suppose im prob looking for more of an progressive/electro house groove than deep house. From some of the tracks it sounds like producers are just layering synths with notes instead of one synth with chords or am I completly wide of the mark. The swedish lads claim that they cant really play the piano so I figured there has to be someway of doing it.
I tried harmony improvisator and wasnt too impressed with it for anything other than pads. I downloaded the demo of chordspace and its a bit all over the place some notes only play a note and others chords so Im a bit lost with it
I tried harmony improvisator and wasnt too impressed with it for anything other than pads. I downloaded the demo of chordspace and its a bit all over the place some notes only play a note and others chords so Im a bit lost with it
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- KVRAF
- 6388 posts since 8 Jun, 2009
A lot of progressive seems to be two notes spaced either by a fourth or a fifth, so they're not full chords (at least not in the lead). You can get more variety into the lead line by playing the notes by hand in real time (so you can switch between fourth and fifth or other intervals) but it's easy to set up a synth patch with the interval hardwired in if you just want to use the same interval through the section.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 149 posts since 3 Nov, 2010
Ya I have that going on too but it still feels very static. I think I might just lay down some notes or possibly some fifths and just start layering until Im happy or give up!! Cheers man
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- KVRAF
- 7837 posts since 20 Jan, 2008
pick up band in a box. Don't try to play all parts at once unless you intend to be one of those lounge lizard one man band soloists. You don't have to fill every nook and crany of a song with sound. It's better to play something short and mean it then try to play something long.
Dell Vostro i9 64GB Ram Windows 11 Pro, Cubase, Bitwig, Mixcraft Guitar Pod Go, Linntrument Nektar P1, Novation Launchpad
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- KVRAF
- 7540 posts since 7 Aug, 2003 from San Francisco Bay Area
I think you're barking up the wrong tree if you're looking for a tool to write your chords for you. Yes, you can do that, but its far easier just to master the basics of music theory enough to bang out a few chords. Theory can get very complex, but none of that is relevant to the sort of stuff you're describing.
Just read up on the basics of scales, standard triads such as major, minor, augmented, diminished, and sevenths. Also the circle of fifths.
Armed with that information, you can try different root note progressions and build on them, just as you described, but with a greater understanding of the type of chords you're using. A lot of this will still boil down to trial and error, practice, and not giving up if it isn't immediately easy.
As far as physically playing the parts in, that shouldn't really be an obstacle. Just take your time getting your fingers onto the notes for the chord, play it into the sequencer, and repeat. Once you have a rudimentary chord progression in the computer, you can go into the piano roll note editor and cut and paste to form rhythmic sequences.
I completely understand the temptation to chase after that big red "easy" button, but if you take just a little bit of time to master the basics now, you'll be rewarded for the rest of your music-making days.
Just read up on the basics of scales, standard triads such as major, minor, augmented, diminished, and sevenths. Also the circle of fifths.
Armed with that information, you can try different root note progressions and build on them, just as you described, but with a greater understanding of the type of chords you're using. A lot of this will still boil down to trial and error, practice, and not giving up if it isn't immediately easy.
As far as physically playing the parts in, that shouldn't really be an obstacle. Just take your time getting your fingers onto the notes for the chord, play it into the sequencer, and repeat. Once you have a rudimentary chord progression in the computer, you can go into the piano roll note editor and cut and paste to form rhythmic sequences.
I completely understand the temptation to chase after that big red "easy" button, but if you take just a little bit of time to master the basics now, you'll be rewarded for the rest of your music-making days.
Incomplete list of my gear: 1/8" audio input jack.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 149 posts since 3 Nov, 2010
Cheers deastman. Ya I dont want to use a chord generator I do want to learn to play the chords myself its just that I know the chords and the theory I just cant play them so i was looking for advice on how to still be able to produce while im learing.
Your advice on a rudimentary chord progression sounds like something I should be doing. Are you talking about just getting like a single i, iv and v chord into my sequencer and the copying a pasting them around in the piano roll editor untill I have a good rhythm going? I tried something similar last night by just drawing in the tonic notes and building chords between sylenth and massive and I managed to get something going. I think what you are suggesting is obviously better as Id be learing the chords as I go.
Is it a common thing to get a basic sequence of chords into a sequencer and then copy and paste the notes and chords around in the piano roll? I see it in a lot of the future music in the studio series
Your advice on a rudimentary chord progression sounds like something I should be doing. Are you talking about just getting like a single i, iv and v chord into my sequencer and the copying a pasting them around in the piano roll editor untill I have a good rhythm going? I tried something similar last night by just drawing in the tonic notes and building chords between sylenth and massive and I managed to get something going. I think what you are suggesting is obviously better as Id be learing the chords as I go.
Is it a common thing to get a basic sequence of chords into a sequencer and then copy and paste the notes and chords around in the piano roll? I see it in a lot of the future music in the studio series
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 149 posts since 3 Nov, 2010
I shouldnt really need anything like band in a box or any of the others for what Im looking to do is soemthing similar to
Who ever produced that track for Guetta just repeated the same 3-4 chords for the entire thing and only introduced different layers to break up the track. Now im no guetta fan although that track does sound sweet baning out of that P.A. but it seems like it should be a piece of piss to produce.
Lay down chords-----layer-----compress---vóila
Who ever produced that track for Guetta just repeated the same 3-4 chords for the entire thing and only introduced different layers to break up the track. Now im no guetta fan although that track does sound sweet baning out of that P.A. but it seems like it should be a piece of piss to produce.
Lay down chords-----layer-----compress---vóila
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- KVRist
- 32 posts since 20 Aug, 2009
Here is a very simple way to create chord progressions:
1) Start with a key, say A minor.
2) Then learn the pitches in this key (if you are using keyboard, they are the white keys starting from the pitch A)
3) Start with a chord, for instance A minor chord which is made up of the pitches A-C-E there are one white key in between. (you can do a little search on chords on wikipedia, it shouldn't take more than 20 minutes to understand the basics)
4) Now you start playing around. you can move one or two fingers to side notes such as A-D-F(D minor chord) where I moved C-E one key to the right and got myself a progression and now I can move all my fingers one key to the right and get B-E-G(E minor).
5) with this you get yourself a progression.
6) you should experiment many combinations, you can try moving your fingers half step to black keys and experiment, move them towards each other etc.
7) There are no rules really, just guidelines. You can jump five keys to the right for instance from A-C-E and move the middle finger up a semi-tone and get E-G#-B (e major). This is a i-v progression (memorizing this is redundant by the way).
play one bar with one chord and one bar with the other.
9) now program an interesting rhythm for your progression.
10) you can try 4-6 chords in a sequence, but its good to go back to where you started once in a while (every 4 bars for instance)
If it sounds good then the progression is probably okey. Just experiment, share and get feedback.
Do not rely on computer aid before learning the basics, just an advice.
Good Luck.
1) Start with a key, say A minor.
2) Then learn the pitches in this key (if you are using keyboard, they are the white keys starting from the pitch A)
3) Start with a chord, for instance A minor chord which is made up of the pitches A-C-E there are one white key in between. (you can do a little search on chords on wikipedia, it shouldn't take more than 20 minutes to understand the basics)
4) Now you start playing around. you can move one or two fingers to side notes such as A-D-F(D minor chord) where I moved C-E one key to the right and got myself a progression and now I can move all my fingers one key to the right and get B-E-G(E minor).
5) with this you get yourself a progression.
6) you should experiment many combinations, you can try moving your fingers half step to black keys and experiment, move them towards each other etc.
7) There are no rules really, just guidelines. You can jump five keys to the right for instance from A-C-E and move the middle finger up a semi-tone and get E-G#-B (e major). This is a i-v progression (memorizing this is redundant by the way).
play one bar with one chord and one bar with the other.9) now program an interesting rhythm for your progression.
10) you can try 4-6 chords in a sequence, but its good to go back to where you started once in a while (every 4 bars for instance)
If it sounds good then the progression is probably okey. Just experiment, share and get feedback.
Do not rely on computer aid before learning the basics, just an advice.
Good Luck.
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- KVRAF
- 2217 posts since 15 Jul, 2003
I'm pretty sure this is why there's quantization and piano roll editors and gate efects
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- KVRist
- 32 posts since 20 Aug, 2009
Yep, piano roll is pretty much where its at for dance music. Rather than using fingers, you can use your mouse and move your notes around in the piano roll, adjust note lengths and create rhythms, lastly quantize to taste.
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- KVRist
- 441 posts since 30 Apr, 2007
If you want to make like the track you linked, you might try making a little melodic theme first without worrying about chords. Then you have all the time in the world to figure out what sequence of chords support that melody and build it up.
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- KVRAF
- 7540 posts since 7 Aug, 2003 from San Francisco Bay Area
I usually go the other direction. I find it much easier to start with a chord progression and then improvise on top of that for a while until I arrive at a pleasing melodic theme. Of course, I do tend to go back and forth with this, refining the progressions and melodic lines as the song progresses. To each his own...Nystul wrote:If you want to make like the track you linked, you might try making a little melodic theme first without worrying about chords. Then you have all the time in the world to figure out what sequence of chords support that melody and build it up.
Again, there are no rules, no "right" or "wrong" ways to make music. It sounds like you already have a handle on the basics, and its mostly keyboard technique which is getting in your way. Cutting and pasting chords around is a totally valid way to go. You might also try playing around with an arpeggiator, holding down a chord and letting it generate the progressions for you. Then cut and paste as before.
Incomplete list of my gear: 1/8" audio input jack.
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- KVRAF
- 6388 posts since 8 Jun, 2009
Which sequencer are you using? Some of them have arrangement toolbars at the top that you type chord symbols into that then transpose the MIDI and audio loops underneath. Logic does this in its Global Tracks although it can be a bit hit and miss in practice in terms of how it does the transposition. Yamaha had a sequencer for Windows years ago that did it pretty well but, being Yamaha, discontinued it shortly afterwards. Live doesn't but I don't know about the others.