...or, how can two computers, a midi cable and a stupid producer ruin everything.
And that's my story. Perhaps some of you guys will know how to fix this mess.
Ok. Me and my brother went to a studio to record some drums. We recorded drums in 10 channels to have fun with them later on. Four channels were recorded in my computer using Sonar (Kick and sanre passing through a focusrite twin track and amb L/R through the pres from my firebox) the other channels were recorded through the studio's computer, 2 using an HHB valve compresso and a Behringer compressor, and the others four channels passing through the pres of an old analogue brazilian desk running Vegas pro. right, we were happy with the sound of everything and started tracking it down. I said: Lets sync the computers! Ok. We hook up a Midi cable and sync the softwares.
Sonar:
-Configured as master (because all the arrangements, metronomes and etc. were there)
Vegas:
The slave.
Sonar:
-MTC enabled, 30 FPs ND
Vegas:
_Waiting for midi input..., 30 FPS ND
Sonar:
44.1K
Vegas:
48K !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! S**t!!!
We spent the night recording in the studio. We did edit the takes, we listened to everything repeated times and when we were happy we backed up all session files and went back home.
When I imported some files from the studio to my machine that I realized the files were playing at a higher speed. F***!
After unsuccessfully waste our time trying to match the files by importing and converting it differently, we decided to recreate the experience. Let's sync two machines, set them the same way we did in the studio, play back, get the output signal from one of the machines an record the signal in the other. Right! Problem fixed? No.
We tried all possible configurations with Sonar and Pro Tools. None of them worked.
Next, we got a copy of vegas with the guy from the studio and install it.
Man, we couldn't sync both machines!! We did all the setup correctly (we did sync sonar and pro tools, why it is not working with vegas?) Our tracks are missing 6 drum channels, and we are on the mix right now.
Is there any work around for our problem?
I would apprecciate your advice a lot.
Clock, sample rate and a sync nightmare...
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- KVRAF
- 6937 posts since 4 Jun, 2004 from Utrecht, Holland
I suspect one computer recorded at 44.1Hz and the other at 48kHz.
Just use the sample rate conversion function as found in any audio editor to correct it. There must be an option though to just change the sample rate and not repitch/resample. CoolEditPro could do it.
Midi may let you send start / stop commands etc, but it's no good for actual synchronisation. WordClock is what you really needed. Or when doing things really old-school: SMPTE.
Just use the sample rate conversion function as found in any audio editor to correct it. There must be an option though to just change the sample rate and not repitch/resample. CoolEditPro could do it.
Midi may let you send start / stop commands etc, but it's no good for actual synchronisation. WordClock is what you really needed. Or when doing things really old-school: SMPTE.
My MusicCalc is temporary offline.
We are the KVR collective. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
We are the KVR collective. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
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- KVRAF
- 8731 posts since 24 May, 2002 from Tutukaka, New Zealand
Ditto. Different sample rates. I don't know Vegas at all, but maybe it won't record in 44.1KHz (seems strange to me, but then those EMU cards apparently do that so it's definitely possible).
You should be able to convert without too much destruction, although I guess it's not going to be an absolute perfect copy. Another sample rate converter that's supposed to be good is that Voxengo R8 Brain. Can't say I've used it but I've heard it given the thumbs up.
I'd be a little surprised if Sonar couldn't convert it itself though...? That kind of thing should be stock in trade to all of the decent DAWs nowadays.
You should be able to convert without too much destruction, although I guess it's not going to be an absolute perfect copy. Another sample rate converter that's supposed to be good is that Voxengo R8 Brain. Can't say I've used it but I've heard it given the thumbs up.
I'd be a little surprised if Sonar couldn't convert it itself though...? That kind of thing should be stock in trade to all of the decent DAWs nowadays.
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- Banned
- 1842 posts since 4 Aug, 2004 from just right here
Well I happen to pick up a philrees syncroniser the other day. Be a while before I get around to testing it out. Iv got to change its power plug first. It does SMPT and FSQ. I do have this other sync box for the 808 which works from tape.
I get the feeling that its better to sync from tape to the softwares sampler or vsti than to wave files somehow? Cause tape speed varies and wave files don't. So its 2 or 3 analog or the 6 or 7 other analog whith seqencer sampler or vsti.
I get the feeling that its better to sync from tape to the softwares sampler or vsti than to wave files somehow? Cause tape speed varies and wave files don't. So its 2 or 3 analog or the 6 or 7 other analog whith seqencer sampler or vsti.
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- KVRAF
- 1676 posts since 17 Dec, 2002 from Yorkshire
why oh why some people start doing tasks without having an essential knowledge? and than software is to blame, sound card is to blame, everything is to blame...
anyway I second the view of that samplerates are different. and to be honest it would be beneficial for you to figure out what it means by yourself...
anyway I second the view of that samplerates are different. and to be honest it would be beneficial for you to figure out what it means by yourself...
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- KVRAF
- 6323 posts since 30 Dec, 2004 from London uk
"I said: Lets sync the computers!" - sounds so simple dosnt it? It can be fraught with complex issues. Bet u wont try that again.
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- KVRAF
- 8731 posts since 24 May, 2002 from Tutukaka, New Zealand
A bit harsh. Stuff like that can be complicated the first time you do it, and everyone has to learn somewhere.why oh why some people start doing tasks without having an essential knowledge?
Back in the day when the only thing you had to sync was a simple cable to cable via sync24, or a simple MTC track, and sequencers only outputted the one sync format, it was a tad easier. Digital stuff can easily go wrong.(IMO).
Well - he is figuring it out - the hard way. Nowt wrong with asking - he's still going to have to do the hard yards to put it right. We've all f***ed up in the past - I know I used to do it regularly...anyway I second the view of that samplerates are different. and to be honest it would be beneficial for you to figure out what it means by yourself...
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- KVRAF
- 1676 posts since 17 Dec, 2002 from Yorkshire
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 10 posts since 4 Aug, 2010 from Brasil
Yeah, Sorry but, we don't happen to have people around here to teach us the right way to do things. We're relying solely upon manuals, videos, Pdfs and web pages and forums like this one to learn. I can't think of a better way to learn than the trial and error method. We read both softwares documentation. The thing happened just before we started our recording. I didn't realized that my computer was set to 44.1. I think it was a computer crash...bronxsound wrote:why oh why some people start doing tasks without having an essential knowledge? and than software is to blame, sound card is to blame, everything is to blame...
anyway I second the view of that samplerates are different. and to be honest it would be beneficial for you to figure out what it means by yourself...
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 10 posts since 4 Aug, 2010 from Brasil
I'll definitely try it again. I want to learn how to do it correctly. But I won't be trying it with a client's work. I can't be that stupid once again.UltraJv wrote:"I said: Lets sync the computers!" - sounds so simple dosnt it? It can be fraught with complex issues. Bet u wont try that again.
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 10 posts since 4 Aug, 2010 from Brasil
Thanks.kritikon wrote:A bit harsh. Stuff like that can be complicated the first time you do it, and everyone has to learn somewhere.why oh why some people start doing tasks without having an essential knowledge?
Back in the day when the only thing you had to sync was a simple cable to cable via sync24, or a simple MTC track, and sequencers only outputted the one sync format, it was a tad easier. Digital stuff can easily go wrong.(IMO).
Well - he is figuring it out - the hard way. Nowt wrong with asking - he's still going to have to do the hard yards to put it right. We've all f***ed up in the past - I know I used to do it regularly...anyway I second the view of that samplerates are different. and to be honest it would be beneficial for you to figure out what it means by yourself...
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- KVRian
- 668 posts since 28 Sep, 2010
Syncing gear is all about two things: Pace and Place. The devices have to share the location in the project they are, and what speed they are going at. With audio it would be the sample rate and timecode, with MIDI, the tempo and bar count.
Thankfully you weren't working with video, because it gets a lot more complicated when you're syncing video and audio through several devices.
Thankfully you weren't working with video, because it gets a lot more complicated when you're syncing video and audio through several devices.
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 10 posts since 4 Aug, 2010 from Brasil
You're right. I'm surprised we couldn't convert the file with both Sonar and PT! I'm sure that there is a work around. We're gonna figure it out.kritikon wrote:You should be able to convert without too much destruction, although I guess it's not going to be an absolute perfect copy. Another sample rate converter that's supposed to be good is that Voxengo R8 Brain. Can't say I've used it but I've heard it given the thumbs up.
I'd be a little surprised if Sonar couldn't convert it itself though...? That kind of thing should be stock in trade to all of the decent DAWs nowadays.
Yesterday we started mixing the project and I've got a pre. Here's the link if you want to hear it.
My brother is mixing the project and he also plays drum. I did everything else and the artist (Paulo Teixeira) is singing.
It's just a pre mix, it was our first day, there's a lot of things to fix but its already sounding good (I think). Feel free to comment.
https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B0CD4_ ... ist&num=50
Many thanks for the advices.
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 10 posts since 4 Aug, 2010 from Brasil
[quote="JD Gaffe"]Syncing gear is all about two things: Pace and Place. The devices have to share the location in the project they are, and what speed they are going at. With audio it would be the sample rate and timecode, with MIDI, the tempo and bar count.
quote]
It makes sense. I'm gonna check the settings once again.
Thanks.
quote]
It makes sense. I'm gonna check the settings once again.
Thanks.
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- KVRAF
- 6179 posts since 29 Mar, 2003 from Location: Location
So if your just trying to fix the project audio, will you up-sample the 44.1 to 48k or the other way around?
Which ever you do, changing your original project sample rate will re-arrange all your audio data placement, especially if you have un-glued audio parts...if I remember correctly.
Maybe re-create a copy of the project your want to sample change, change the new project sample rate to match the other project rate, then import the files into tracks.
The host should ask if you want to re-sample the audio files from the original rate to the new project rate.
I don't know what else you have in those projects...like midi or audio edits and what-not...so the above is just a start or more, an experiment. I have some synchronizing experience, but i'm no expert. I like to hear how you are correcting this mistake so I can learn myself.
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For the future, have you found how you are going to 'drive' your slave audio card from your master card? There are a few tricky ways to do it, all dependent on what your using.
Which ever you do, changing your original project sample rate will re-arrange all your audio data placement, especially if you have un-glued audio parts...if I remember correctly.
Maybe re-create a copy of the project your want to sample change, change the new project sample rate to match the other project rate, then import the files into tracks.
The host should ask if you want to re-sample the audio files from the original rate to the new project rate.
I don't know what else you have in those projects...like midi or audio edits and what-not...so the above is just a start or more, an experiment. I have some synchronizing experience, but i'm no expert. I like to hear how you are correcting this mistake so I can learn myself.
---
For the future, have you found how you are going to 'drive' your slave audio card from your master card? There are a few tricky ways to do it, all dependent on what your using.
....................Don`t blame me for 'The Roots', I just live here. 
