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Majestic290 · Post by **Majestic290** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:29 pm

what is counterpoint in laymens terms

emanual tehpirate · Post by **emanual tehpirate** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:42 pm

"In music, counterpoint is the relationship between two or more voices that are independent in contour and rhythm and are harmonically interdependent" - wikipedia

"different bits of tunes playing at the same time" - me

i guess its like the three (or less or more) lanes on a stretch of motorway, all the different types and makes of vehicles are going in the same direction but at different speeds and for different distances. again its an 'i guess' and i'd be happy to stand corrected

Ogg Vorbis · Post by **Ogg Vorbis** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:40 pm

Majestic290 wrote:what is counterpoint in laymens terms

Counterpoint is the study of the relationships between pitches. Over the years it's come to be used synonymously with polyphony, but its origins are simply the consideration of notes (points) in relationship to one another "punctus contra punctus."

Majestic290 · Post by **Majestic290** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:56 pm

ah i see now. Sort of like how intervals sound so harmonic. LIke how a 5h interval sounds so good

what i mean is that sometimes i come up with melodies, even the same notes sound so good when played a certain way. Intervals of the tones is why i think it's like that

sammy24 · Post by **sammy24** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:57 am

I think of it as the study of the horizontal aspect of music. It includes understanding melody from a purely linear perspective (melodic intervals, changes of direction, etc.) as well as the study of how more than one melody work together. It can get complicated, but it's a pretty important aspect of music. Think of it this way-- why is it that you understand harmony (or, the vertical aspect of music) pretty well, but haven't the foggiest clue how you would approach writing a string quartet. I mean, rhythm, and style, and orchestration have to do with it. But counterpoint is sort of that missing link that kind of allows a composer to take it to the next level.

Isn't music all about awareness? The more things, aspects, musical ideas, you are aware of, the deeper your understanding of the music (and the better your chances at making your own successful music). Good music doesn't happen by accident. So if a composer is blissfully unaware of the horizontal relationships he is forming, etc., then he is missing something, and certainly not taking full advantage of it. Meaning, counterpoint can be a huge strength rather than a weakness. I should add, I am at what I consider the beginning stages of studying counterpoint. But at least I feel like I know what road I'm going down. (A long one?...

)

oddpop · Post by **oddpop** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:15 am

so does anyone have common examples? I thought counter point was liek goping

lala .... BOOM

ie using stark contrasts between notees/ instrumentation or something

DocAtlas · Post by **DocAtlas** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:28 am

oddpop wrote:so does anyone have common examples? I thought counter point was liek goping

lala .... BOOM

ie using stark contrasts between notees/ instrumentation or something

A really simple example would be the round, Row, Row, Row Your Boat. A more complex example would be the fugue in J.S. Bach's Toccata & Fugue in D minor. Other examples in between those extremes would be Bach's 2 and 3 part inventions.

fmr · Post by **fmr** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:39 am

oddpop wrote:so does anyone have common examples? I thought counter point was liek goping

lala .... BOOM

ie using stark contrasts between notees/ instrumentation or something

Canons and fugues are great examples of counterpoint. To understand it, you may begin with the child canon "Frère Jacques" (I think the anglo-saxonic countries give this another name, but I don't know it). Each voice starts imitating what was sung by the previous voice. When you reach four voices, you have harmonies there, but they just "float" around, since the leading aspect is the melody amd the imitations.
One of the most beautiful examples is the "Canon in D" from Johannes Pachelbel, which is a "chaconne" (the bass is repeating always the same eight bar tune) over which was composed a three voice perfect canon.
Listening and analysing this will give you a good idea of what is counterpoint.
Most of the progressive rock bands aldo did "counterpoint" every now and then (when you have the singer singing, the lead guitarist soloing, the bassist also soloing, the keyboardist soloing too, you definitely have counterpoint).

sammy24 · Post by **sammy24** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:08 pm

Just wanna point out, even though rounds, canons, and fugues are certainly good examples of counterpoint, any time 2 melodies are playing at once there is an element of counterpoint. Which is nearly always in music. Just listen to any jazz-- the bass line and the melody or improvised melody create counterpoint. Any time a second melody makes itself stick out at all, i.e. it has a different rhythm or contour than the main melody, that is counterpoint. Canons and rounds sort of feature counterpoint. Just as all music has rhythm, but you could create music that features rhythm more than the other elements of music, meaning anyone listening kind of understands that you are focusing on rhythmic idea(s).

strav101 · Post by **strav101** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:18 pm

Its just more than one voice playing simultaneously - but even a monophonic line can be contrapuntal if it is written to mimic 2 voices (compound melody line).

However - music is considered more contrapuntal if there is independence between the melodic lines.

Harmony is the result of counterpoint - you cannot have harmony without counterpoint (although placing block chords under a melody would be hardly contrapuntal)

Even 2 percussion instruments playing at the same time (but different rhythms) (e.g claves) can have contrapuntal lines - but this would be exclusively rhythmic if they are of the same pitch

manducator · Post by **manducator** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:32 pm

If you want an example, listen to the beach boys.

Close harmony is the same as counter point.

HTBoogie · Post by **HTBoogie** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:37 pm

oddpop wrote:so does anyone have common examples? I thought counter point was liek goping

lala .... BOOM

ie using stark contrasts between notees/ instrumentation or something

It gets more complicated that this, but think of a barbershop quartet. An obvious example of counterpoint is where two of the voices move in opposite directions and it "works." The theory of counterpoint is why it "works" or how to make it work. The contrast can be subtle or stark. It is, of course, more obvious when it is stark.

robogone · Post by **robogone** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:05 pm

manducator wrote:Close harmony is the same as counter point.

???

Are you sure you're thinking of counterpoint?

manducator · Post by **manducator** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:13 pm

robojam wrote:
manducator wrote:Close harmony is the same as counter point.
???

Are you sure you're thinking of counterpoint?

Oops, isn't it right what I'm saying? Sorry for the confusion if I'm wrong.

rp314 · Post by **rp314** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:55 pm

sammy24 wrote:I think of it as the study of the horizontal aspect of music.

The simple answer.

A lot of this is academic in nature. Music can often be quite complex and difficult to learn to write and perform.

In order to better understand "form" certain aspects of music are analyzed. However strictly speaking most music involves harmony, counterpoint and musical styles which make clear classifications be of little use beyond that of trying to figure out what's going on "inside" the great works.

That said, the examples you're bound to get from folks around here will probably help to illustrate things fairly well.

What EXACTLY is harmonic/vocal counterpoint?