I was wondering how many use K-Meter and how well they think it works.
I was reading up on it today and sounds interesting.
Anyone use K-Meter?
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- KVRAF
- 14740 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
You mean the "plugin" K-Meter or the "K-Metering" in general?
I use this particular K-Metering system for years, and it works great. Lots of meters out there, a lot of them configurable as well.
Take a look into my KVRmarks, I linked a couple of threads regarding the K-System and how to setup PSP Vintage Meter that way (works with every configurable VU/RMS meter).
I use this particular K-Metering system for years, and it works great. Lots of meters out there, a lot of them configurable as well.
Take a look into my KVRmarks, I linked a couple of threads regarding the K-System and how to setup PSP Vintage Meter that way (works with every configurable VU/RMS meter).
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 9944 posts since 15 Sep, 2005 from East Coast of the USA
Yes I meant K-Meter the plugin, and thanks for the info.Compyfox wrote:You mean the "plugin" K-Meter or the "K-Metering" in general?
I use this particular K-Metering system for years, and it works great. Lots of meters out there, a lot of them configurable as well.
Take a look into my KVRmarks, I linked a couple of threads regarding the K-System and how to setup PSP Vintage Meter that way (works with every configurable VU/RMS meter).
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- KVRAF
- 1729 posts since 26 Feb, 2008
Ok, so I'm not a big metering fan in general but what is the real draw behind the k-metering system? I don't quite understand what it's about.
Snare drums samples: the new and improved "dither algo"
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- KVRAF
- 14740 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
In short, you setup/calibrate your system to respond to a certain "sound pressure level".
You mix/master then to this particular level "maximum", and have a certain maximum RMS level as well (-20dB RMS, -14dB RMS, -12dB RMS). Nowadays, most productions are pressed to -5dB RMS (absolute upper end).
The K-System fights against that particular Loudness War/Race to preserve the sound of the production, while still having a loud "output".
Read more in either the book "Mastering Audio" or DigitalDomain.com - both from Bob Katz.
Or try to hunt down one of many threads regarding the K-System.
You mix/master then to this particular level "maximum", and have a certain maximum RMS level as well (-20dB RMS, -14dB RMS, -12dB RMS). Nowadays, most productions are pressed to -5dB RMS (absolute upper end).
The K-System fights against that particular Loudness War/Race to preserve the sound of the production, while still having a loud "output".
Read more in either the book "Mastering Audio" or DigitalDomain.com - both from Bob Katz.
Or try to hunt down one of many threads regarding the K-System.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 9944 posts since 15 Sep, 2005 from East Coast of the USA
Do you know if that can be applied to Pro Channel in Sonar X1? Just wondering as I am thinking of upgrading to that version pretty soon.Compyfox wrote:In short, you setup/calibrate your system to respond to a certain "sound pressure level".
You mix/master then to this particular level "maximum", and have a certain maximum RMS level as well (-20dB RMS, -14dB RMS, -12dB RMS). Nowadays, most productions are pressed to -5dB RMS (absolute upper end).
The K-System fights against that particular Loudness War/Race to preserve the sound of the production, while still having a loud "output".
Read more in either the book "Mastering Audio" or DigitalDomain.com - both from Bob Katz.
Or try to hunt down one of many threads regarding the K-System.
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- Rad Grandad
- 38041 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine
it's just metering, samplitude has the option built in...k-system should work with any hostExamigan wrote:Do you know if that can be applied to Pro Channel in Sonar X1? Just wondering as I am thinking of upgrading to that version pretty soon.Compyfox wrote:In short, you setup/calibrate your system to respond to a certain "sound pressure level".
You mix/master then to this particular level "maximum", and have a certain maximum RMS level as well (-20dB RMS, -14dB RMS, -12dB RMS). Nowadays, most productions are pressed to -5dB RMS (absolute upper end).
The K-System fights against that particular Loudness War/Race to preserve the sound of the production, while still having a loud "output".
Read more in either the book "Mastering Audio" or DigitalDomain.com - both from Bob Katz.
Or try to hunt down one of many threads regarding the K-System.
But I would check to see if x1 has k-meter 
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.
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- KVRAF
- 14740 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
Like I said, if the RMS meter or VU meter is configurable, it should be possible.
I have a thread in my KVRmarks where I give a detailed explanation in how to set that up. You don't need PSP Vintage Meter for this.
And keep in mind:
The K-System is a GUIDE. It's not your ultimate solution to everything.
If you don't know anything about mastering, leave it be. It's not aimed to be used while doing postproduction, unless you STICK to K-20.
I've written a post regarding gainstating and properly setting up your host in the Slate Digital thread. Also linked in my KVRmarks.
I have a thread in my KVRmarks where I give a detailed explanation in how to set that up. You don't need PSP Vintage Meter for this.
And keep in mind:
The K-System is a GUIDE. It's not your ultimate solution to everything.
If you don't know anything about mastering, leave it be. It's not aimed to be used while doing postproduction, unless you STICK to K-20.
I've written a post regarding gainstating and properly setting up your host in the Slate Digital thread. Also linked in my KVRmarks.
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- KVRAF
- 5139 posts since 27 Jun, 2004
I don't use it nor other well known (and industry standard) metering systems for recording or mixing. I get better results using my own logic comprised of my own guidelines (not rules set in stone) based on my understanding and preferences of how different types of sounds should be recorded/processed and mixed. My "metering"/choice of volume/dynamics level, is usually consistent, but I sometimes change it from slightly to drastically based on specific aims in different musical works. Couldn't be done if I limited myself to tight-assed, static rules for something as hugely dynamic as music.
"Music is spiritual. The music business is not." - Claudio Monteverdi
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- KVRAF
- 3335 posts since 18 May, 2003 from Sweden
It sounds like you could teach Bob K. a thing or two!Shy wrote:I don't use it nor other well known (and industry standard) metering systems for recording or mixing. I get better results using my own logic comprised of my own guidelines (not rules set in stone) based on my understanding and preferences of how different types of sounds should be recorded/processed and mixed. My "metering"/choice of volume/dynamics level, is usually consistent, but I sometimes change it from slightly to drastically based on specific aims in different musical works. Couldn't be done if I limited myself to tight-assed, static rules for something as hugely dynamic as music.
/Joachim
If it were easy, anybody could do it!
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- KVRAF
- 14740 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
It's not like he gave an ultimate "meter rule".
He offered a unified way to setup your listening environment to a specific leveled signal (-83dB SPL, pink noise) and then adjusted a VU meter to respond to that certain value.
You basically use your ears only, not the meter. The meter is the guide, the ears are your ultimate judge.
While doing postpro, you should have an eye on the master bus' digital peak meter anyway. If the summed signal reaches -1dB, you're about there (which would resemble something between K-20 and K-14 depending on the program material, and how careful you worked - aka cleaned up the mess).
You can adapt it, you don't need to.
In reality, which applies to the DR-Meter (Dynamic Range Meter) as well btw, you really only need the K-System for (pre)MASTERING. Not while songwriting or doing Post Production.
Leave the mastering to the engineers.
He offered a unified way to setup your listening environment to a specific leveled signal (-83dB SPL, pink noise) and then adjusted a VU meter to respond to that certain value.
You basically use your ears only, not the meter. The meter is the guide, the ears are your ultimate judge.
While doing postpro, you should have an eye on the master bus' digital peak meter anyway. If the summed signal reaches -1dB, you're about there (which would resemble something between K-20 and K-14 depending on the program material, and how careful you worked - aka cleaned up the mess).
You can adapt it, you don't need to.
In reality, which applies to the DR-Meter (Dynamic Range Meter) as well btw, you really only need the K-System for (pre)MASTERING. Not while songwriting or doing Post Production.
Leave the mastering to the engineers.
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- KVRAF
- 5139 posts since 27 Jun, 2004
I have nothing to teach him, he knows perfectly well that his sweeping generalizations and love for restrictions are a matter of personal preference. He just loves making them. Good thing most people don't think like him. His metering system is based on others' before him, the difference is that they had mostly practical reasons behind the restrictions, not so called artistic considerations.
"Music is spiritual. The music business is not." - Claudio Monteverdi
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- KVRAF
- 3441 posts since 15 Mar, 2003
I don't really see the need for the metering system, or the system being put forward by the Pleasurize Music people.
You end the Loudness War simply by not using maximizers and working toward peaks at 0db or deciding on a standardized RMS level that people stick to.
A metering system that has you calibrating your playback levels and tries to make people mix at a certain db level is really not needed, nor is a specified dynamic range (like the Pleasurize Music people are looking for).
It's no bodies place to tell the artist that they must have a certain number of db dynamic range in a song.
What we need is to get product at a consistent level.
If an artist wants a non stop loud track at a constant volume that's his business.
If she wants a distorted final product that's her business. Let her squash it, but release it at the standard rms level so that the listeners don't have to constantly change volume and so that the war to be as loud as everyone else can stop and artists that want to put out a good sounding product with wide dynamics can do it without anyone complaining that it's not loud enough.
You end the Loudness War simply by not using maximizers and working toward peaks at 0db or deciding on a standardized RMS level that people stick to.
A metering system that has you calibrating your playback levels and tries to make people mix at a certain db level is really not needed, nor is a specified dynamic range (like the Pleasurize Music people are looking for).
It's no bodies place to tell the artist that they must have a certain number of db dynamic range in a song.
What we need is to get product at a consistent level.
If an artist wants a non stop loud track at a constant volume that's his business.
If she wants a distorted final product that's her business. Let her squash it, but release it at the standard rms level so that the listeners don't have to constantly change volume and so that the war to be as loud as everyone else can stop and artists that want to put out a good sounding product with wide dynamics can do it without anyone complaining that it's not loud enough.
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- KVRAF
- 14740 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
Well, but this IS what both Katz and Tischmeyer are trying to push:
a consistent level
Both the K-System Meter and the Dynamic Range Meter are basically "guides" to see where you are and tell you not to go over at a certain point.
Set it up once, get used to it, forget the meter.
The calibration of the listening environment counts to that one as well: you reach the SPL, you're pretty much too loud. It's the upper end of things. DR-Meter: hit DR8 and you have K-12 AZ+4 - aka: too loud.
Agreed that we should more or less go back to the aspect of barely touching the 0dB limit. But unfortunately we're still far from that to put the volume "down" in terms of loudness (maximizers). People need to learn to turn up their amps again, rather than let it blast already.
Benefit: better sound, more natural transients and way better sound on the radio as well
Personally I use the K-System as "guide" only while mastering. While postpro, I try to stick below -1dBFS peak on the summing bus. Endresult: automatically K-14ish - depending on the program material.
Though this is purely my experience/opinion. I work with both systems for years now, and it actually works well. Just doesn't swing with everyone yet.
a consistent level
Both the K-System Meter and the Dynamic Range Meter are basically "guides" to see where you are and tell you not to go over at a certain point.
Set it up once, get used to it, forget the meter.
The calibration of the listening environment counts to that one as well: you reach the SPL, you're pretty much too loud. It's the upper end of things. DR-Meter: hit DR8 and you have K-12 AZ+4 - aka: too loud.
Agreed that we should more or less go back to the aspect of barely touching the 0dB limit. But unfortunately we're still far from that to put the volume "down" in terms of loudness (maximizers). People need to learn to turn up their amps again, rather than let it blast already.
Benefit: better sound, more natural transients and way better sound on the radio as well
Personally I use the K-System as "guide" only while mastering. While postpro, I try to stick below -1dBFS peak on the summing bus. Endresult: automatically K-14ish - depending on the program material.
Though this is purely my experience/opinion. I work with both systems for years now, and it actually works well. Just doesn't swing with everyone yet.