Minor scale question

[A.M. Gold]

Is there a name for a minor scale with a flat 5th? e.g. The scale of A minor with an E flat instead of an E natural.

[z.electric]

I'm unaware of a specific name for the scale, although you'd describe the associated 1, flat3 flat5 as a diminished minor (or diminished triad chord).

I've no idea if that helps. My theory's not what it used to be.

[thefool808]

You haven't provided enough information to know what *scale* you're talking about. There are any number of scales containing that triad. But, ya, what z.electric said. It's a diminished triad. Why do you ask?

[Bobbotov]

"A" Locrian has a flat fifth. (Also a flat 2nd)

[A.M. Gold]

You haven't provided enough information to know what *scale* you're talking about. There are any number of scales containing that triad. But, ya, what z.electric said. It's a diminished triad. Why do you ask?

The key of A minor with an E flat: that isn't enough information? I was talking about the A minor scale, not the A minor triad.

I'm asking because someone asked me to help identify some of the scales he was using in improvising. All of them were based on standard diatonic modes, except that one, and he kept playing the E flat instead of E throughout an entire section of the piece so I viewed it as a kind of scale instead of simply an accidental. The way he used it, at least, it has an interesting sound that seemed vaguely "Middle Eastern" to my ears.

[geroyannis]

It's the sixth mode of melodic minor. Usually named Locrian natural 2 (my keyboard doesn't have appropriate symbol for "natural").

[A.M. Gold]

It's the sixth mode of melodic minor. Usually named Locrian natural 2 (my keyboard doesn't have appropriate symbol for "natural").

Ah, ok, cool. I thought it might be a known variation on one of the minor scales, so thanks for clearing it up. Like I said, it has a sound that can be useful in some situations---I recommend trying it!

[tapper mike]

I can honestly say I've almost never used the locrian mode persay. Most times when I want to reach for a dimished type sound I'll use the whole half scale or the half/whole scale.

If it starts on C then it would be
Whole/half C-D-Eb-F-Gb-Ab-A-B
Half/Whole C-Db-Eb-E-Gb-G-A-Bb

These are known as Octatonic scales (eight note scales) They were easier for me to work out then modes based on the melodic minor.
Most people who study rock work out modes from the major scale but skip modes from the melodic minor scale. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazz_scale ... inor_scale
I rarely work in those modes.

[sammy24]

Some also call it Aeolian b5. Which is the same thing as Locrian natural 2 of course. It is one of the most-often used scales for a minor 7 b5 chord (a.k.a. Half-diminished, depending on what school you belong to.)

[japut_99]

Is there a name for a minor scale with a flat 5th? e.g. The scale of A minor with an E flat instead of an E natural.

dorian #4 (IV)HARMONIC MINOR

dorian flat 5 (II)from harmonic major

OR LIKE SOMEONE ELSE SAID (VI) MODE(locrian nat 2) OF MELODIC MINOR

(VI) neapolitan major (alt nat 2)

Locrian nat2 nat7 (III) of hungarian major

bebop locrian nat 2 (I)

8 tone scales (synthetics)
(III) mode of diminished scale
(VIII) mode of 8tone spanish
(II) mode bebop major

Minor just means it has a flat 3rd(most times 99% neapolitans only different rule)so I think this covers any possibility of those particular intervals.
Let me know if I missed any. Sorry if its a little messy too.

Btw this is mapped out to the flat 5th it doesn't extend out any futher.

[japut_99]

Saying its a minor is kinda vague as well but can be compensated for. I do it too. Any scale containing I,II, bIII and I usually call it a minor too.

[jancivil]

Most times when I want to reach for a dimished type sound I'll use the whole half scale or the half/whole scale.

These are known as Octatonic scales (eight note scales) They were easier for me to work out then modes based on the melodic minor.
Most people who study rock work out modes from the major scale but skip modes from the melodic minor scale. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazz_scale ... inor_scale
I rarely work in those modes.

I would also make a connection with a symmetrical octatonic. I never heard of modes of melodic minor until a couple years ago, and probably from this forum, but it opened up a couple things I wouldn't have chanced on I guess.

I never really think while playing. But I would practice things to internalize intervals as colorations of a ground, and devise strategies, but I play by ear, and I don't think in terms of scales much at all, scales don't mean melody. (Indian musicians don't run scales so much, raga is about broken/zig zag lines...)

[jlocri]

In my honest opinion, names aren't very important in this situation. Call it a minor scale with a flat fifth and then use either the natural fifth or the flat fifth to your discretion. It's not like anyone is forcing you to use exactly seven tones.

[jancivil]

yeah, I was gonna say that, 'what name' is of what use really. what it does in a context is what matters.

[A.M. Gold]

I don't think in terms of scales much at all, scales don't mean melody. (Indian musicians don't run scales so much, raga is about broken/zig zag lines...)

Same here. I think it's up to the player/composer. The bottom line is you have 12 pitches on a keyboard and additional microtones if you play a fretless instrument or if you bend a stringed instrument (or with vocals).

I guess, for me, it's just notes and they seem to come together in different ways, depending on the context and what the flow of harmony and melody might be for a given piece. If you are fluidly changing between scales/keys (i.e. with accidentals) it's often complicated to even establish what scale you are using at any given time, since things are so rapidly and fluidly changing.