chord progression

[Stomper]

hi,
im struggling a little with chord progression. i know there are some chords with better connection/feel to them like when you move between two major chord or moving between two minor chords in the scale. i also know that usually theres a good feel when moving to a chord 5 notes down or 4 up (making the first note in the chord the 3rd in the new one). i try to enhance parts by adding another note to the chord (cant remember if its called a 5th or 7th).
it when i try to make interest by adding chords between them that dont have that good connection between them (not that they sound bad, im sure you understand what i mean). i play around until i find something i like, but i always get stuck somewhere and where nothing sound good to me (even if i invert some note in it).
what do you suggest on doing in that situation?
i wanted to try taking a chord from a different scale and i know it is done by a lot of musicians, i just never know how to do that.


Stomper.

[Ogg Vorbis]

Hi Stomp. Music is very very hard to do well. You can struggle along and look at the musical language as a sort of rigid and foreign set of tools, or you can learn it well and use it like a flexible and pliable substance that can do anything you wish it to.

I suggest that you take some harmony and ear training courses from a university or from a solid teacher who is a professional musician. Find someone to help you learn harmony and scales from a knowledge viewpoint, but also from a hearing viewpoint simultaneously. Then you will internalize the language and the forms.

Or you can smack your head against the wall...who knows, you might get a breakthrough? But studying for a few years is faster and easier.

[jlocri]

Very good advice Ogg Vorbis, but I've found that finding someone knowledgeable about harmony and willing to teach is extremely hard to find, outside of spending thousands to study at a music conservatory (who won't even accept you unless you're either part of some musical nobility or are already very skilled). And don't say I'm just being paranoid, I've seen the worst musicians put in amazing places because their parents were also (semi-famous) musicians .

Anyway, in the mean time, this link is pretty obligatory: http://www.musictheory.net/

Work through the lessons and tutorials. Let Mr. Adams teach you about chord movements and basic harmony free of cost. Come back to us when you want to know more and we'll guide you, also free of cost.

[gambaytheunspoken]

Here's a very simple method that I use when I'm trying to develop interesting chord progressions that sound good to my ears. First I might start by playing with my left hand the kind of chords I like hearing, say a sus7 or mb7, etc. To get to the next chord I start playing different single notes with my right hand, and when I find one or two that sounds good I now construct chords around these, but always playing the original chord, sometimes even making changes to that as well, to make sure I'm getting the sounds I want. Wouldn't hurt to have pencil and paper close by to jut down these chordal ideas as you hammer them out. Eight bars later, with some repetition, you pretty much have the chordal structure of a tune. Anyhow, that's one way that I work. Another way is to just pull out a copy of "The Real Book" and just copy what Monk or Bill Evans did. The interesting thing about the latter route is that trying to figure out why these guys developed these progressions actually helps you to build your own vocabulary.

Ciao!

[manducator]

Maybe you could try this;

http://www.musictheory.net/

Go to lessons and there are some lessons about chord progressions.

[jancivil]

...
what do you suggest on doing in that situation?
i wanted to try taking a chord from a different scale and i know it is done by a lot of musicians, i just never know how to do that.

As a general situation, as you've posed it, that is difficult to address. If you presented an actual example...

You don't know how to do that because don't have enough information, and even if you did you need to test it. It can take some time to obtain the tools for this kind of thing. I would suggest experiencing the music of other people you find made that kind of thing work, learning it by ear and trial/error if that's what it takes.

Rome wasn't built in a day, they say.

As far as a teacher, I wouldn't take a person's negative experience for more than that is. Most of mine were excellent. if it isn't available, keep asking questions...
I can't really address generalities, show a progression you've tried and failed and problems can be identified and maybe suggestions offered.

[Stomper]

thanks for the links.
i will check musictheory.net, sound like something that can really help.
as for a teacher, i am a student (not music related) so i cant afford one at the moment.

@jancivil,
an example for a progression im working on:
Cminor
3-5-1-4-3-5-1-5
i play with different inversion so its not up/down all the time, but thats basiclly it.


thanks for all the help.
Stomper.

[jancivil]

ok, from that it would appear that's all C minor, I have to guess you mean Eb, Gm, Cm, Fm, Eb, Gm, Cm, Gm.

what doesn't work, and where would you want more interest that you would think of another key as a solution, and why?

Is there a tune this supports, or just a progression trying out progressions?

there are so many things I don't know about this, for instance what's the 'harmonic rhythm', ie., how often and when do the changes occur.

on the face of it, there are a number of what we call 'weak' (ie., stepwise or thirds movement), but that isn't a problem necessarily. If you want strong movement it might be.

[Stomper]

hi,
thanks again for the help.
not sure how i can explain the rhythm, so i uploaded a score image.


theres no tune or anything to it. im trying to only make some progression until i get the hang of it and wont get stuck every time.
i dont really like the way it ends and how the end and start are connected when looped.
anything i tried sound just too obvious and not interesting or just doesnt sound good.

Stomper.

[jancivil]

I think it might be more useful at this stage, in order to gain some insight into chord movement, to think in terms of applying chords to a melody. Chord progressions outside of any musical context isn't something I'll have a lot to say about...

I will say that Cm to Eb, or Eb to Gm isn't so interesting per se, there's so little difference or change; the context of how that supports a tune might be another story.
In pop music there are formulaic things to do, such as I vi ii V I (C Am Dm G C); there is strong movement in that. In minor, i to VI, or Cm to Ab feels strong. Cm, Ab, Gsus, G7, Cm (i VI Vs V i), as a start, and at some point a deception or surprise in place of the usual goal met...
it's likely there are basic, usual suspects kinds of concepts you'll lack familiarity in.

So, one essential thing to do is find songs that work for you and figure it out, find out by ear, trial and error and you'll gain some ear-training, and some understanding.

Having done that for a little bit, one thing to do is decide on a simple tune to harmonize, and ask questions of someone such as myself about your particular issues.

[Stomper]

I think it might be more useful at this stage, in order to gain some insight into chord movement, to think in terms of applying chords to a melody. Chord progressions outside of any musical context isn't something I'll have a lot to say about...

well, i have a problem constructing a good melody, my idea was to use harmony to make a melody out of, not harmony from a melody.

i have big problem extracting a harmony from existing song because they usually dont play the harmony or it least it is not that obvious and hard to hear. when i search for music sheet it always guitar...

i will keep working on my harmony hopefully it will get better in time.


Stomper.

[jancivil]

I meant a tune that exists already. Mary Had a Little Lamb even.

"my idea was to use harmony to make a melody out of, not harmony from a melody."
Why? If so, take tried and true progressions and make a melody out of that. As it is you're just kind of thrashing about lacking any center.

I believe, for obtaining an understanding of chordal usage, it is more useful to harmonize a given melody, that's my experience.


the chords are the chords, guitar vs piano is irrelevant. If anything finding the piano chords off of guitar sheet music on the piano is a valuable exercise.

When I transcribed Abbey Road off the record, I was 15 (1971) and knew little, and it wasn't easy. I didn't have sheet music for it.
By the time I had it, piano parts where I could hear them, McCartney's bass parts, various roles in the guitar parts, what-have-you, I knew something.

Before I thought to write something I had that experience, I had learned umpteen songs out of fake books, I had shitty little rock bands, context. The songwriter I arranged for and recorded with, in my first decent band, had learned a lot of Beatles records before experimenting with 'chord progressions', and in any case he was a singer and the chords supported a melody he sang. 'Constructing' a melody isn't really it. You *hear* a melody. One might learn to do that from experience with that which came before that worked.

If you think you're, lacking context, out of kind of vacuum it appears, going to come up with something real interesting, that's a mistake.

[Stomper]

my english aint that good, so im not sure if i understand you fully.
but what your basically saying is, take music sheet and get the chords from the lead/melody? which will help me understand the context between the melody and harmony?
how do you do that? i can find the scale, but the lead is not always constructed from the first note of a chord, so how can i know which chord is it?