DIY Midi Controller, 4xBCF 2000, 2xBCR 2000

[sonicfire]

Hi folks!

I've used two B-Control Devices in the past and am REALLY thinking about doing a DIY project, involving six B-Control Devices...
(4x BCF 2000 Black, 2x BCR 2000).

I've done a little 3d Render on what i'm trying to achieve. It's not final, and i'm not the best 3d artist, but its just to get the point



The whole thing will / should control Logic 8 Pro on a Macbook via one single USB connection (MOTU Midi-Interface). I'm using Generic Remote then.




(All 6 Devices go via MIDI to the MIDI Interface, so that Logic always has the same "Port" to start with / look for. I've experienced some MIDI control trouble in the past when using USB.... resulting in "nothing work" )... so that's why

What you think? Good idea? Too much of hassle? I guess everything that i'm trying to do should be entirely possible from what i know concerning MIDI control and stuff ... and also cost for material should be low, some new fader caps (ebay), some paint/spray for the v-knobs/pots, some wood,
and so on (i would do the labeling via transparent printer sheets) ...




Cheers !

BIG PICTURES:
http://prodyon-virtual-gear.com/images/example1.jpg
http://prodyon-virtual-gear.com/images/example2.jpg
http://prodyon-virtual-gear.com/images/example3.jpg

PS: Anyone willing to donate some bucks?

[Compyfox]

Dude, that is SICK! Like... seriously...

I'm happy with my 2 BC devices (BCR and BCF), but this takes the cake. Is it practical on the long run (an engineers dream)? The hell do I know - if the BC-OSes would be more flexible, maybe. Else, programming from the host is a PITA.




A couple of things to consider though:
1) You need a 8x8 MIDI device just for this control desk (actually 6x6) if you don't use USB - else you need a proper USB hub or enough slots.
2) Generic Remote will be a bitch - at least with Cubase (should I ever recreate that, I fear the issues and floating windows for the "top row" devices)
3) you need a framing that can house these modules and still leave room for the power cords and MIDI cords - top row could utilize angled MIDI cables
4) Theoretically you can "daisy chain" the BCR/BCF, but I don't recommend doing that (never worked for me)
5) from Cubase's perspective, Mackie babyHUD mode works fine via USB for my BCF.
6) The "spacing" shouldn't actually be no problem at all. You can remove the sidepanels and the rounded front cover. So creating a similar desk like in your picture should be fine. Removing the caps and coloring them should be no problem as well.



From the picture (3D render) I take it that the bottom row will be for the faders, panning and solo/mute work. Top Right is planned to be send FX? And I think top left is EQ, and top middle for "general FX usage".


Like I said, Generic remote in Cubase would be a bitch because each "remote" can (and will) have a different floating dropdown window. UNLESS... you want to work with the standard set of plugins only, no third party setups for compressor/EQ/send FX stuff. Since I do the later... er... no.

Definitey an interesting project which can turn out great, though pricey unless you get some crazy discount from Behringer (don't think they'd do that).

Oh and... if you want it white, you need to do a custom paint job (and loose all labels) - at least for the BCR, only the BCF is sold in white.




Should I ever get another BCF, I'll remove the sides and arramge it to a 2xBCF+1xBCR console (mounted on a board of plywood). I don't need much else, and don't have much space left over either. At the moment my desk is arranged like this (left to right): BCF (babyHUI mode), 2004A Eurorack (Monitoring Device), BCR (Generic Remote). And I'm definitely a happy mix monkey.


Good luck. If you pull it off, I want to see some gear pr0n... er I mean... pictures and videos!

[sonicfire]

Dude, that is SICK! Like... seriously...

I'm happy with my 2 BC devices (BCR and BCF), but this takes the cake. Is it practical on the long run (an engineers dream)? The hell do I know - if the BC-OSes would be more flexible, maybe. Else, programming from the host is a PITA.

I think so! It should give me quite a bit of flexibility

A couple of things to consider though:
1) You need a 8x8 MIDI device just for this control desk (actually 6x6) if you don't use USB - else you need a proper USB hub or enough slots.
2) Generic Remote will be a bitch - at least with Cubase (should I ever recreate that, I fear the issues and floating windows for the "top row" devices)
3) you need a framing that can house these modules and still leave room for the power cords and MIDI cords - top row could utilize angled MIDI cables
4) Theoretically you can "daisy chain" the BCR/BCF, but I don't recommend doing that (never worked for me)
5) from Cubase's perspective, Mackie babyHUD mode works fine via USB for my BCF.
6) The "spacing" shouldn't actually be no problem at all. You can remove the sidepanels and the rounded front cover. So creating a similar desk like in your picture should be fine. Removing the caps and coloring them should be no problem as well.

1) Yup. Decided to go the MIDI route since with USB i could run into too much trouble, especially since i already use like 4-5 USB devices on a HUB!
I plan to get either get Motu's MIDI Express 128 or to look for something cheaper on Ebay. Time will tell...
2) I've used GR with Cubase in the past, actually i found it working quite nice, but now i think i remember those floating window trouble, yes! I know there was something ... too long ago now
3) Will get some plain piece of wood (not sure about the thickness yet) and then try to cut the "housing" for it. (The side panels). It will get interesting when i then try to fix/mount the center units with the rest. Haven't thought about how to this yet.
The angled MIDI cable idea is excellent, thanks!!
4) No, won't do that either. Each Device - unique ID and MIDI Port just to be safe!
5) Actually never tried it back then!
6) I really hope so I also do hope that all the painting and spraying/"air-brushing" won't end in a desaster I have only *one* try

From the picture (3D render) I take it that the bottom row will be for the faders, panning and solo/mute work. Top Right is planned to be send FX? And I think top left is EQ, and top middle for "general FX usage".

Exactly!
Yup, the 24 Faders only control the volume all the time. The 8 upper-right faders are intended for more precise controlling of Auxes/Sends 1-8 (Hopefully this is possible) and/or for some possible Master-Effects (Filters, Delays and so on).

Like I said, Generic remote in Cubase would be a bitch because each "remote" can (and will) have a different floating dropdown window. UNLESS... you want to work with the standard set of plugins only, no third party setups for compressor/EQ/send FX stuff. Since I do the later... er... no.

Definitey an interesting project which can turn out great, though pricey unless you get some crazy discount from Behringer (don't think they'd do that).

Oh and... if you want it white, you need to do a custom paint job (and loose all labels) - at least for the BCR, only the BCF is sold in white.

Can't comment that since i'm planning to run the "console" with Logic, and i'm currently not really planning to make 3rdPartyPlugin setups since i wanna work mainly with Logic's onboard plugins + some heavily used favourites (compressors and stuff). So basically it's really designed for mixing only

I know Originally the 3d Render should look like silver, it turned out to be white (My fault), so i'm planning to have the 6 devices painted/sprayed silver. Yes, i would loose the labels but that's no big deal as i want to overlay my own labels anyway using transparent printer sheets !

Should I ever get another BCF, I'll remove the sides and arramg
e it to a 2xBCF+1xBCR console (mounted on a board of plywood). I don't need much else, and don't have much space left over either. At the moment my desk is arranged like this (left to right): BCF (babyHUI mode), 2004A Eurorack (Monitoring Device), BCR (Generic Remote). And I'm definitely a happy mix monkey.

Good luck. If you pull it off, I want to see some gear pr0n... er I mean... pictures and videos!

Sounds like a good setup!
Let's hope i can be this too (in the future)! Erm..the Happy Mix Monkey
Thanks, i will keep you posted!

[Compyfox]

I think so! It should give me quite a bit of flexibility

Then I don't want to see you coursing and swearing over programing the BCR's in Logic (though I do have to admit, the "devices setup" was very interesting and a bit more flexible compared to Cubase).

1) Yup. Decided to go the MIDI route since with USB i could run into too much trouble, especially since i already use like 4-5 USB devices on a HUB!
I plan to get either get Motu's MIDI Express 128 or to look for something cheaper on Ebay. Time will tell...

Thomann offers the ESI M8U XL USB MIDI controller for 189Euro - it's also Win7 and latest OSX compatible. Pity that M-Audio ditched the 8x8 series, but I'm thankful they FINALLY added Win7 drivers for the "pre-anniversary" 4x4 MIDIsport box.

2) I've used GR with Cubase in the past, actually i found it working quite nice, but now i think i remember those floating window trouble, yes! I know there was something ... too long ago now

Depends on how "troublesome" you see these GR floating windows. I only wish you could trigger them by MIDI notes or something, then I don't even need them being opened. The GR is basically only there for 3rd party plugin control and general EQ needs in Cubase anyway (with the BCR). For everything else, I have the BCF in Mackie babyHUI mode.

3) Will get some plain piece of wood (not sure about the thickness yet) and then try to cut the "housing" for it. (The side panels). It will get interesting when i then try to fix/mount the center units with the rest. Haven't thought about how to this yet.

You could get plywood (Leimholz) with about 1cm thickness, should be stable enough. BAUHAUS can cut the rough shape (retangle) for you free of charge as well. The middle section could be a horizontal piece of wood which is backed up in the middle (or at the connection points of the device sides, so that there are two vertical pieces of wood) below the upper row. So you have some sort of canals as well. And it's more stable should you press too hard on the devices.

I've only realised another issue with your idea however... you can remove the sides and the rounded front of the BCR/BCF, but there is still a metal plate that is part of the case. This needs to be cut off IIRC. Else you can't mount it like in the pic.


But in general, the casing should be simple to build and you can literally "lay in" the devices - no hot glue or something to hold them in place.

4) No, won't do that either. Each Device - unique ID and MIDI Port just to be safe!
5) Actually never tried it back then!

I would reconsider that. Again, I can only speak for Cubase, but I experienced the USB connection in Cubase more stable for the babyHUI mode than with MIDI (especially with full duplex communication). Of course this works MIDI based as well, but remember... serial communication!

6) I really hope so I also do hope that all the painting and spraying/"air-brushing" won't end in a desaster I have only *one* try

Before you build anything, I'd start creating proper templates with one BCR and BCF. This way you can see if your planned sections work as they should. Since I don't have two BCF's, I don't even know how to "link" the bHUI devices so that I could utilize 16 faders! Then again, happy with 8 (unless I mix a larger drumset - and the BC's don't have LCDs to show which channel you're at - until you daisy chain the BCgui thing).

And, there is one downside too - in the "host modes", the controllers side buttons (BCF) are reserved for specific functions. You can't program them seperately unless you really go the GR route (PITA again). Then you can custom-program all these buttons as well. I did NOT go for that, since jumping pages and accessing higher channels didn't work on my end.


BTW:
The BCF has a LOGIC Control Mode as well - just take a look at the manual.

Exactly!
Yup, the 24 Faders only control the volume all the time. The 8 upper-right faders are intended for more precise controlling of Auxes/Sends 1-8 (Hopefully this is possible) and/or for some possible Master-Effects (Filters, Delays and so on).

So you mean "sends" of the individual channel strip or "send channels" (aka fader of these channels). I have a GR preset where I can use the BCR for the send levels of the particular selected channel (strip). I don't know off hand if "send ammount" is covered with the host controller modes for the BCF. Else, a job for Generic Remote again.

One thing I should add here: for more precision, you should program your controller with 14bit values, not 7 bit values. Else compressors are responding jumpy. EQs are fine most of the time, but if in 14bit CC, you can work more finetuned. With the negative sideeffect of having to constantly turn the darn poti.

At the moment, my device has a preset on channel 30 that is setup to 7bit MIDI CC. I was too lazy to program one for 14bit. Then again, so far no massive compressor usage.

I know Originally the 3d Render should look like silver, it turned out to be white (My fault), so i'm planning to have the 6 devices painted/sprayed silver. Yes, i would loose the labels but that's no big deal as i want to overlay my own labels anyway using transparent printer sheets !

Again, before doing anything (disassembly, custom paint job, etc), I highly advice you testing stuff first if it's really working like you expect it to do.

Sounds like a good setup!

It is... I should make some pictures of that as soon as my studio rebuilt is done. Not too happy on certain ends with the placement of the devices, but I at least have distinct sections and can't mess up things by accident. I see it as a "split console" array. Only that the 2004A is larger in size than the two BC's.

Let's hope i can be this too (in the future)! Erm..the Happy Mix Monkey
Thanks, i will keep you posted!

Haha, I'm sure you will. Never looked back, even though I originally wanted a ProControl 1. My workflow has massively improved, I mainly go by ears now rather than dot values or mouse actions. Definitely much more fun and "humanized", though still a bit jumpy to control certain EQ's (filter modes).

There is just stuff you can't replace in the digital realm - and that is touching knobs and faders.



Oh and... please do so (keep us updated). Else, your studio is in Spandau/Falkensee right? Theoretically I could take a visit and see that thing in motion. If you let me of course.

[sonicfire]

@compyfox: great idea with the EMU Midi-Interface, thanks! Might use this since i can use an external power supply then. Don't want to drain the USB Port's power to much

Yeah, i thought about Bauhaus, too! Guess they can cut it way more precise than i can. Not sure about the metalplate, are you sure? Oooph, that would be a bit troublesome. Mhh guess i just have to wait and see.

And yes, i will do full testing before i do all this. From what i remember, almost everything should be possible and Generic Remote is the only decisions or way to go for me. But with so many parameters and functions i have to do proper testing in advance. Can't wait!

Yes, i mean sends (busses (buses?) in Logic) that i've pre-setup for every channel (it's a Channelstrip / Template with loaded EQ, Noisegate and Compressor as well as eight Sends, where 1-4 are routed to default effects that i use most of the time.).

Thanks for the 14bit CC tip! Will see how it works in the end and then decide what to use for what application.

Yes, i'm located in Spandau! Of course, that shouldn't be a problem - but don't expect that very soon. I just started saving some money for all the devices and material. I guess it will take 2-3 months before everything is ready

Thanks!

[fabi]

One thing I should add here: for more precision, you should program your controller with 14bit values, not 7 bit values. Else compressors are responding jumpy. EQs are fine most of the time, but if in 14bit CC, you can work more finetuned. With the negative sideeffect of having to constantly turn the darn poti.

You can actually choose between three different speed-up modes for the potis on the BCR and BCF, which is very useful if you use 14bit MIDI on them, as I do, too. If you turn the potis slowly you can then have very fine control, but a quick turn of the poti will get you to max value i just one turn.

It's probably only possible through that excellent freeware BCR/BCF editor whose name and developer escape me right now. However if you are interested I could try to hunt it down. I recently reinstalled my system, so I don't have it on my machine, yet.

[Compyfox]

@compyfox: great idea with the EMU Midi-Interface, thanks! Might use this since i can use an external power supply then. Don't want to drain the USB Port's power to much

Since I was looking for a 8x8 MIDI device myself, this was the cheapest and one of the only still supported ones (aparently, nobody cares for MIDI hardware anymore, unless it has an USB port). I don't know how rock solid they (ESI) are - don't use/have it.

Yeah, i thought about Bauhaus, too! Guess they can cut it way more precise than i can. Not sure about the metalplate, are you sure? Oooph, that would be a bit troublesome. Mhh guess i just have to wait and see.

Bauhaus is only "free" in terms of cuts if they are horizontal/vertical. Diagonal cuts, special cuts, milling and the likes cost extra. Plan in another mm or two, just in case (paint will take some space, and not all cuts are 20cm for example, but more like 19,9cm)

I'm pretty sure about the metal place, yes. Seen several pictures, never opened my modules however.

Yes, i mean sends (busses (buses?) in Logic) that i've pre-setup for every channel (it's a Channelstrip / Template with loaded EQ, Noisegate and Compressor as well as eight Sends, where 1-4 are routed to default effects that i use most of the time.).

If you only want to control the pan/volume of these preset send channels, then take a look at the host modes for the BCF again. Could save you a lot of time. If Logic can also utilize quick controls (top 8 poties for example), you can even route them to the send level ammount of the selected channel strip.

So... 2 GR's and 4 BCF's in Logic Mode or Mackie (baby)HUI.

If you have one BCF/BCR each already, get going with testing.

Thanks for the 14bit CC tip! Will see how it works in the end and then decide what to use for what application.

From experience, 7bit is fine for most applications, but if you have a compressor like Melda Productions or ReaComp that is very precise, the response is too jumpy.

I'd setup two programs for each BCR (30 and 31). Program 30 being in 7bit, 31 being in 14bit. Then leave the program switch buttons alone so that you can still navigate stuff. More flexibility (at east in Cubase if the GR preset route to the same CC number), so you can switch programs on the fly. Did pretty much the same, but stopped in the middle of creating a 14bit patch for the BCR.

The 20ies on my BCR are synth setups (one being V-Station, all found in the BCR/BCF Yahoo Group), 30ies are my custom GR stuff, 10s are stock from Behringer.

Yes, i'm located in Spandau! Of course, that shouldn't be a problem - but don't expect that very soon. I just started saving some money for all the devices and material. I guess it will take 2-3 months before everything is ready

No rush, I'm just throwing around ideas and share some experience as long as it's possible for me (still scratching the surface myself). But since my head is full of constuction ideas due to my recent studio build, maybe I can help.



One question regarding the 3D render... which program did you use? I don't think it was Google SketchUp, no? It doesn't look much harder than SweetHome 3D, which I used to plan my apartement for the studio conversion.

[jonahs]

Look at the emagic amt8 / unitor hardware. Lots of MIDI ports cheap and it works with logic.

I'm interested in any painting techniques you use. I'd like to do more with my bcr2000s to make then communicate better visually.

Good luck!