KVR Audio

Mike20 · Post by **Mike20** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:12 pm

Hey, I'm getting to the point in music production now where I have practised as many technique's as i can and i want to start getting my own tunes done. One thing that is puzzling me at the moment is when you have big lead chords, say for example :

(44 seconds)

is this normally a lead line then layered by chords, e.g a lead written then just duplicated a 3rd/7th etc. Or is it common to be mixing your chords up completely, i.e lowering say your mid notes and highering your higher notes etc.

Also i have recently finished reading 'The dance music manual' Book and there is a section on music theory that i have in front of me and the guy is saying it is uncommon for chords to have 4 notes in them.. When i am writing my chords/ leads (like the example above) - I tend to use at least 4/5 notes per hit. Is this why i am not getting very far with my leads or is that lack of creativity at the moment?

I also hate the way i find myself sometimes just copy and pasting say my first 4 notes, then dropping them by a 3rd/5th etc. - sounds so typical.

I know 'if it sounds good it is good' - But at the moment it doesn't so i could do with a little knowledge if i am doing things 'wrong' or if there is a best practise to try -

Thanks

como baila · Post by **como baila** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:07 am

I'm just an amateur ... but this link on orchestration might help regarding the effects of voicings on a chord.

http://www.wisemanproject.com/education ... oSato.html

I also wonder in the dance manual they meant notes in the sense of the 7 notes of the typical scale ... not whether there were two of the same notes in different octaves.

I think the above link is helpful because remember, whether it is the same instrument playing a chord, or several instruments/ voices playing notes at the same time, at the moment of the sound it is harmony.

One reason why you may not be getting the sounds you want ... could be because you aren't following the 'rules' of voice leading when you change from one chord to another. There are things we are used to hearing that 'sound right,' and if certain 'rules' are not followed the progression can lose it's impact.

Also, try different inversions of your chord with the notes spread over greater distances octave wise and see how it sounds.

There is also a little rule about not using more than one note that is a third in the chord. So in C Major, for example, you might make a chord with G1/ C2/ C4/ and G5 ... but only one instance of a E'something' in the chord.

Como

Nystul · Post by **Nystul** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:07 am

If you are using a thick tone like these massive unison leads, then it is hard to use dense textures with 7ths or extended chords. What I hear in a lot of this music is a nice lead riff, probably doubled in a lower octave or by the bass, and the middle lines are fleshed out with basic chords. You can start out using just I, IV, and V chords to fill in the harmony, and in many cases that is all that is being done.

peppy197 · Post by **peppy197** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:08 pm

Big chords do not equate to big delicious sounds.

Big chords can be muddy (that evil term) if the notes are too close, as within the basic octave. The human brain likes notes a third and perfect fifth apart in a chord such that they can be tasted...

That is prob why they say the chords are usually 3 notes, like is often the case in rhythm guitar enabling speedier shift between chords and less mud. By using the tonic, third and dominant, all the color is there, albeit in its simplest. Two notes is an interval, a triad is a chord. If the bass is playing the root, you might get away without the tonic enabling a pseudo-big chord adding the 9... now I'm lost in my own rambling error prone prose

Now I am not a theoritician....

If the notes are far apart as with 13th and 9th noted chords etc.., there may be less mud.

muddy waters thinks so too

al

WhiteRhino · Post by **WhiteRhino** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:38 am

As mentioned earlier, big chords don't always make bigger and better sounds.
In this kind of electronic music, it wouldn't be common to hear much more then major/minor triads and fifths (power chords...). Perhaps a sus2/4 or a 7th chord placed tastefully, but like I said, not common.
When programming, be careful to keep your bass notes on roots especially, then fifths if you'd like, adding thirds, sevenths or anything else creates mud like peppy mentioned.
In your example, I'd say bass note fifths, and major/minor triads (corresponding to the songs key) would be a safe assumption or a good start at least in the video you've posted.
Hope this helps

tapper mike · Post by **tapper mike** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:40 am

Blah blah blah, Much of using big chords is performing on the correct instrument. The more I listen to Gospell/funk/fusion/smooth jazz the more I hear big complex chords sounding great. Same goes with Modern Jazz and Bebop.

Mike20 · Post by **Mike20** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:02 am

Thanks so much for the replies

After sitting with my music book for a while now playing around with different sounds/chords i think it is just as much as the actual sounds you are using aswell as the chords..

I was watching an interview with deadmau5 and he was saying 'i hate it when you can tell what chord is going to come next' - i think i was trying too hard to create ones that i havent seen before (trying to get creative without the knowledge) and it was getting messy.

Thanks

krisroberts · Post by **krisroberts** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:21 pm

they layer different instruments. Typically in this 'swedish' style of house it's the korg M1 sample i think most use. they then layer it with a bassline synth, a synth playing the same chords and a topline. The chords are normally of a major scale and 2 - 3 notes rich. the power doesnt come from massive chords but the layering of the chords with the added topline and bassline which makes it seem like there is 4-5 notes per chord. Pretty simple to produce as far as production goes.

torry011 · Post by **torry011** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:35 pm

Check out northern sounds. They have a free orchestration tutorial online. (sorry I don't have the link right here)

chardin · Post by **chardin** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:38 pm

Hey, torry011, is this the link? An online forum titled "Principles of Orchestration." Looks interesting...
http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/for ... on-On-line

Northern Sounds wrote:
Lesson 01 - GENERAL REVIEW - Strings & Woodwinds

Lesson 02 - GENERAL REVIEW - Brass, Percussion & Other Instruments

Lesson 03 - MELODY - Strings - Melody in Stringed Instruments

Lesson 04 - MELODY - Strings - Grouping in Unison

Lesson 05 - MELODY - Strings - Doubling, Thirds & Sixths

Lesson 06 - MELODY - Wood-wind - Melody in Wood-wind

Lesson 07 - MELODY - Wood-wind - Unison & Octaves

Lesson 08 - MELODY - Brass - Melody, Unisons & Octaves

Lesson 09 - MELODY - Different Groups of Instruments Combined

Lesson 10 - MELODY - Different Groups of Instruments (Cont.)

Lesson 11 - HARMONY - General Observations

Lesson 12 - HARMONY - String Harmony

Lesson 13 - HARMONY - Wood-wind Harmony

Lesson 15 - HARMONY - Brass Harmony

Lesson 16 - HARMONY - Combined Groups - Wind & Brass

Lesson 17 - HARMONY - Combined Groups - Wind & Brass (cont.)

Lesson 18 - HARMONY - Combined Groups - Strings & Wind, Three Groups

Lesson 19 - COMPOSITION - Orchestrating the Same Music

Lesson 20 - COMPOSITION - Tutti

Lesson 21 - COMPOSITION - Soli

Lesson 22 - COMPOSITION - Range Limits, Transference, Alternating Chords

Lesson 23 - COMPOSITION - Volume of Tone Qualities, Repetition, Sfz, Emphasis

Lesson 24 - COMPOSITION - Crescendo and Diminuendo

Lesson 25 - COMPOSITION - Effects, Rhythm & Color

tapper mike · Post by **tapper mike** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 1:08 am

If the notes are far apart as with 13th and 9th noted chords etc.., there may be less mud.

No that really depends on the timbre of the instrument and the range. Piano's do a find job of clusters chords. Organs in the mid to lower registers not so much.

groovizm · Post by **groovizm** » Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:10 pm

These big chords in your example are just triads (chord consisting of three different notes). Mayby the bass is doubled in octaves, and that sound sound is a unison sound with lots of detune, wich makes these chords sound bigger then they are.

As to the relationship between the chords and the melody, I'm glad you asked. Many books on harmony address the kind of progressions that were used in classical music, this is where the I-IV-V-I talk is coming from. In dance music the same rules need not (most often do not) apply.

The chords in your example are chosen for their melodic quality. They are just a little riff, "harmonised" by paralel moving triads. The lead is playing against the riff with different rhythms and movement.

This kind of chord riff, can be part of a slower moving harmonic movement, indicated by the bass. The riff could use maybe up to 4 or 5 different chords while the bass is staying in place for 1, 2, 4 measures, or even the whole song.

So, if you want to really get that anthem sound, you could have slow harmonic movement indicated by the bass (and maybe a soft pad sound, or high strings, plus a chord-riff in the middle, as a kind of small hook, plus a big lead on top.

And, of course, you could move (temporarily) to an entirely different key somewhere in the middle of you track, for a nice build-up or break.

Mike20 · Post by **Mike20** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:43 pm

Thanks for that reply it was a great help

Big Chords