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rbarata · Post by **rbarata** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:30 am

If I have a "cantus firmus" in E Phrygian how is the B in the counterpoint cosidered the leading tone? Shouldn't it be the D?

rbarata · Post by **rbarata** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:16 pm

65 views and no replies

I'm disapointed, really disapointed.

Anyway, sme more information about this. This is what Sibelius plug-in "Check First Species Counterpoint" tells me.

standalone · Post by **standalone** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:49 pm

You cannot translate automatically XVIII's century harmony to medieval modes. The Phrygian V is diminished and the tonic is minor. So, V cannot function in a secondary dominant harmony with II. The Phrygian mode triads more close to the tonic are IV and VII (not IV and V), while V, as said, is the diminished triad.

jopy · Post by **jopy** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:57 pm

rbarata wrote:If I have a "cantus firmus" in E Phrygian how is the B in the counterpoint cosidered the leading tone? Shouldn't it be the D?

this is all guesswork on my part, but i wonder if sibelius is seeing your piece as in C major, don't you think? that would make the B the leading tone. i think there aren't really "leading tones" into the tonic in modal music because there is no tonic chord per se to resolve to and often the intervals don't work out right for leading tones. if you wanted something that sounds like a leading tone in E phrygian you'd probably raise that d a half step, but then you're not really doing phrygian mode any more.

standalone · Post by **standalone** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:25 pm

It's like jopy says. Some people have tried to force their way to harmony through modes as I described in my previous post. But it makes no sense if what you are actually trying to make is counterpoint.

Ogg Vorbis · Post by **Ogg Vorbis** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:44 pm

rbarata wrote:If I have a "cantus firmus" in E Phrygian how is the B in the counterpoint cosidered the leading tone? Shouldn't it be the D?

What is the last note of the cf?

fmr · Post by **fmr** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:50 pm

Couterpoint has nothing to do with tonality (it may or may not be tonal). Counterpoint (or contrapunctus) is just the act of create melodies over a given melody (the tenor, or cantus firmus). Therefore, you have certain rules (basically, you have to avoid paralell fifths and octaves), and you may have to respect the species (there are five counterpoint species - CF against one, CF agains two notes, CF agains four notes, CF against one but with ritards, and all of the abovwe mixed - this one called flourished counterpoint).
You may work with two voices, three voices, four voices, or even more (but more than four would be a real challenge).
If you are going to recreate a certain style (for example, the renaissance polyphony) you may raise the D to D# to atract the E, but only if the voice movement is coming from above, and only in certain conditions, depending on what the other voices are doing.
The II Mode (E mode, which is erroneously being called phrygian) has the repercusa in B, so B is the leading tone, as it is the note around which the melody will develop. A good exaqmple of a melody em the II mode is the Tantum Ergo/Pange Lingua.
So, if you are working with modes, you have to THINK in modal terms, and in modal terms, you don't have functional harmony.

rbarata · Post by **rbarata** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:59 pm

What is the last note of the cf?

It's an E.

I already more or less understood the theoretical reason to not raise the 7th degree of the scale in a Phrygian mode. My question is why Sibelius is saying that the leading tone is B.

fmr · Post by **fmr** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:23 pm

rbarata wrote:
What is the last note of the cf?
It's an E.

I already more or less understood the theoretical reason to not raise the 7th degree of the scale in a Phrygian mode. My question is why Sibelius is saying that the leading tone is B.

It says that because it is. The B is the repercusa - the leading tone - of the E mode.

fmr · Post by **fmr** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:24 pm

Edit: Deleted.

rbarata · Post by **rbarata** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:43 pm

It says that because it is. The B is the repercusa - the leading tone - of the E mode.

I don't know what is a repercusa, or better yet, I know more or less. But how do I find the repercusa of a mode? And what you call the E Mode is the same as E Phrygian? I guess not because you told that in your previous post. What's the difference?

Thanks

fmr · Post by **fmr** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:43 pm

rbarata wrote:
It says that because it is. The B is the repercusa - the leading tone - of the E mode.
I don't know what is a repercusa, or better yet, I know more or less. But how do I find the repercusa of a mode? And what you call the E Mode is the same as E Phrygian? I guess not because you told that in your previous post. What's the difference?

Thanks

Actually, I have a correction to make. The repercusa (the leading tone) of the II Mode (E Mode) is C, not B. B is a note that is usually avoided to be around, since it could create an augmented fourth with F (the "diavolus in musica" - devil in music). Sorry about the mistake, but only now I arrived home, and could check my books and notes.
The E Mode (more precisely, the II Mode, or II Tone) is a mode that starts in E and ends in E, being C (the repercusa) the note around which the melodies "float".
It has a related mode, the plagal, which starts in B, has the repercusa in A, and endes also in E (the plagal modes always end in the same note of the authentic modes, which is called the Finalis) .
In the middle ages, there wasn't an exact tuning system, and music was mainly sung, therefore, the modes (literally "moods" or "ways of being") are what differentiate melodies form each other. The I Tone or I Mode, which begins in D and ends in D, was the most important one, and has it's repercusa in A.
Each authentic mode (D, E, F and G) has a plagal mode, related to it, which begins in a different note, has a different "repercusa" (your leading tone), but ends in the same not. The plagal of D starts in A, has its repercusa in E, but ends in D.
Usually, the repercusa is the fifth note of the mode, but there are exceptions, being the II Mode, or II Tone, one of them.
I must say that a lot of what is written is based on my own research, and follows more or less what has been established the Cecilian Movement. When I talk about modes, I always talk about Gregorian Modes, because that's the modal music we know that we can still study today.
It is believed that Greek music also had modes (that's why in the renaissance some theoreticians started to call greek names to the modes erroneously) but we cannot know exactly what they were, and how they were used.
What some call "renaissance modes" are just theories based on the analysis of music that is already transitioning from modality to tonality, therefore, don't have a precise universe.
Modes died with the baroque, and were resurrected only in the XX century, with the likes of Debussy, Messiaen, etc.
However, there are other modes, in Arabian music, in Balcan music, in Byzantine church music (these very close to the gregorian modes), in Asian music, etc.
AND there are also the modern modes, used in Jazz, in rock, etc. Although they are based in mistaken theories (IMNSHO) they have been used, so, they are here to stay.
Modes are a fascinating world, and they deserve a lot of study. But my point of view is that we cannot approach modes dressed with our common western harmony, because, most of the times, and in the majority of modes that exist, it simply will not fit.
If you want to go deeper, try to make some research, but also in french. I found some of the beter texts in the Internet in french.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:36 am

fmr wrote: What some call "renaissance modes" are just theories based on the analysis of music that is already transitioning from modality to tonality, therefore, don't have a precise universe.
Modes died with the baroque... we cannot approach modes dressed with our common western harmony, because, most of the times, and in the majority of modes that exist, it simply will not fit.

That's right, 'the modes' were treated quite differently than a modern person would arrive at. at the time of these counterpoint 'rules' (often this is really *observations*), modes were altered to give more drive to goals, by 'musica ficta' ('accidentals') via interpretation of the singers and directors of singers. Study of it is its own whole thing, it can't be that glibly abstracted from principles of its practice by referring to a list of obeserved procedures.

It wasn't too long before these nominative modes gave way to major/minor as a way of life.

rbarata · Post by **rbarata** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:30 am

Many thanks for the replies.

If you want to go deeper, try to make some research, but also in french. I found some of the beter texts in the Internet in french.

Can you point some good literature to start with?

Counterpoint modes