Next stupid question: the usefulness of learning / practising scales?

[lingyai]

Hi, as mentioned in other posts, I've no background in music theory, nor am I a musician... basically I'm a singer with an increasing interest in DAW-based composition. Without knowing anything I have nontheless managed to put together some things with the piano roll / midi staff view, and occasionally step sequencers, which some folks have said sound quite alright... but it's been pure trial and error, I've had no real idea what notes / chords were being used.

As discussed in another post a few days ago, I'm realising that tools like the circle of fifths, combined with a piano chord chart, can remove much of the guesswork and grealty improve how I go about things, at least as far as creating chord progressions.

Similarly, can learning scales also help in composition? Frankly I don't aspire to be a great musician; it is fun to noodle on the piano and guitar, but my main goal is to write songs / instrumentals which I then play back on my DAW and perhaps sing on top of. That said, I can see that it could be more fun sometimes to be able to compose a bit at a keyboard vs with a mouse. For example, can knowing scales help in composing melodies? Given my goals, would the hours spent practising them be worthwhile? It does seem kind of tedious.

I know these questions are incredibly naive, so please, nobody whack me. (Or tell me to google "musical scales" and wade through all 40 million hits. )

[sammy24]

Absolutely. At the very least, you gotta know major scales and minor (let's say natural, melodic, and harmonic). And in all keys. But the key is how you learn them. Don't just sit there doing boring exercises on your instrument (not that there's anything wrong with that). Sing them! Learn some basic solfege if you can ( Do, Re, Mi, Fa, So, La, Ti, Do for major) -it's easy, just sing the scale with those syllables, so that you always know where you are in the scale. If you just sing notes, you can get confused and not be able to tell which note you're singing; this way, you'll train your ear to know exactly which note you're singing.

Even if someone told me they wanted to do music as a totally unimportant side-hobby, I still would think this kind of training is necessary. Imagine wanting to do some "basic calculus" or even algebra, but not know your multiplication tables. And if you're a singer, it should be fun, and help your pitch as well. After you get a little good with it, start singing songs or melodies and singing them with the solfege--if you can do this, it means you've started to hear things correctly, and you'll be able to figure out new songs without hunting and pecking on your instrument (and even then not being totally sure you got it right). And btw you can and should practice this away from they computer or keyboard-while driving, walking, shopping-- after a while it does become second nature. And one other thing- in my opinion, a lot of singers could benefit from doing ear-training llike this much more than from voice lessons. Voice lessons are about technique, but technique doesn't mean you know how to sing. A musical singer with average technique will kick an unmusical singer with ten years of training, any day. On the other hand, a musicalsinger with technique will be even better.

[sammy24]

Also, writing songs is about coming up with musical ideas, off the top of your head. You do not need to compose at a keyboard, per se, and in fact most of time it will sound better if you come up with it just by singing alone. Learning scales has everything to do with composing- a scale is like an alphabet, and you definitely need to know the alphabet, backwards and forwards, if you want to write or speak. For someone with your goals, the only aspect an instrument needs to play in learning your scales is to check you're singing them right, and also it would benefit you greatly to learn to visualize the scales on a keyboard. Not to learn keyoard, but just because it is a great visual aid to help you do your ear-training. You can picture the scale in your mind's eye, and then sing the solfege, and your brain will make the connections for you, as long as you practice a lot, and certainly do at least a little bit every single day.

[Bobbotov]

Personally, I think scales to music is like learning words to be a writer. Tools of the trade.

[AnalogGuy1]

A different view: yeah, you'll see the world differently once you know your major scales, but if you're into primarily rock then you only need to be familiar with the natural minor as well (which is easy since its just a displaced major scale...Am uses the same white keys as C, just start and end on A). I wouldn't worry about the harmonic, classical melodic, and jazz melodic minors unless you're into jazz, classical, middle-Eastern, Spanish, or heavy metal...and even if you are, learn the major and natural minor scales first.

Once you learn your majors, music theory becomes much clearer, and your understanding of the circle of fifths will improve (has to do with learning the key signatures). But the major alone will suffice to give you much of that, and the nat minor most of the rest.

There's no end to the scales you *could* learn...

[wrench45us]

as tapper mike pointed out -- a lot of music is muscle memory and many many times your fingers will reach for notes before you even think about what to play or what you're playing. If your fingers fell that you're in Ab they'll know where to reach for the 7th or the 9th

also scale practice (imo) works best if it's about relationships between notes and other scales -- so I see a lot of practice examples working through ii V i progressions across cycle of fifths and mode practice of scales -- in a given key start on root, then 2nd, then 3rd etc. and play partial or full scale/mode.

[tapper mike]

Thanks for the credit wrench,

As far as AnalogueGuy,
I have to whole heartedly disagree with your assertions. There are rock songs build on almost every degree of the diatonic scale with the exception of Locrian. Listen to any Santana from the 60's till the early 80's and you'll here he plays it all in dorian.
Steely Dan really like to mix things up, embelishments abound.
A lot of major classic rock is built on the mixolydian scale. While hair bands of the 80's preferred lydian. If you listen to alot of Clapton he likes to mix and match pentatonics with the mixolydian scale.

wrench45us hits the nail on the head. It's the relationship of chords and scale tones that makes things happen. Working within key it's pretty easy to float thru chord changes. One of the hardest struggles I had was with bebop modality. I would have never gotten there without a strong sense of key and harmony.

These days some 30+ years after learning my first scales I still practice them. The only difference being I practice sequenced patterns more. It makes my playing more fluid in all styles, And when I think of a favored lick I don't have to stop the presses to transpose it to the key I'm working in.

Practicing scales can take only a few minutes of your day if you do them consistantly. People get to eager to speed them up or too frustrated when the notes don't fall right the first time out. If you slow things down to near death boredom but are able to get through the practice you are doing better then trying to race through it.
It's also a good idea to sing your scale. This will endow you with relative pitch. When you have relative pitch it's a lot easier to get the ideas locked in your head onto the instrument. While perfect pitch would be great only i in a million are born with it. Relative pitch also helps you to understand other peoples music you have heard. Usually if I can get to the first note of something my relative pitch helps me figure out the rest.

[AnalogGuy1]

As far as AnalogueGuy,
I have to whole heartedly disagree with your assertions. There are rock songs build on almost every degree of the diatonic scale with the exception of Locrian.

You're absolutely right, and I'd consider the solo in "Enter Sandman" is Locrian...but the OP is someone who's wondering if he/she should learn scales at all, and who's just learned the circle of fifths. Somewhere at the end of the first week in an introductory college music theory course.

I know this isn't what you're saying, but I think the completely honest answer would go something like "yes, in all 12 keys, at least 4 of the most common modes plus harmonic, melodic (at least jazz if not classical), and also pentatonic majors and minors, and blues scales too (at least the three most common) and there are at least 3 quite commonly-used modes of the melodic minor in jazz, but there are rock songs that are built on non-diatonic scales too...

It's all opinion, but my suggestion to the OP remains: "Yes, learning majors in all 12 keys will help you understand music better. It will take a time to learn them but you'll find it very helpful. Next try natural minors." adding "and be aware that, as tapper mike says, there exists far more variety than those, but much of the variety can be understood far more easily once you get the meat and potatoes of the majors down".

[rbarata]

Scales (and the concept of interval) are the building blocks of western music theory so, learning the scales is something that you should not dismiss.

To explain how it is useful is something easy to explain but diffucult to believe until you experience it yourself. So, I guess you just have to trust in our advices and study them.

[lingyai]

Scales (and the concept of interval) are the building blocks of western music theory so, learning the scales is something that you should not dismiss.

To explain how it is useful is something easy to explain but diffucult to believe until you experience it yourself. So, I guess you just have to trust in our advices and study them.

May I ask this, as seeing something in use can be quite helpful...could you or someone just describe in very basic terms a simple example of how this could be used in composition? For example, suppose that using the circle of fifths I find 4 chords in the key of, say, C major, that work well together. What would knowing a scale or scales do for me?

[Acid Mitch]

For example, suppose that using the circle of fifths I find 4 chords in the key of, say, C major, that work well together. What would knowing a scale or scales do for me?

Well knowing the scales means you know what notes are in "C major" and you wouldnt need to refer to the circle of fifths to build your chords and you will know what notes work with your chords when adding melodies ,etc.

Think about it like any other language. If you cant speak it ,you have to refer to texts,etc to say anything.
If you know the labguage you can have conversations without having to reference a dictionary all the time.

[lingyai]

Well knowing the scales means you know what notes are in "C major" ... and you will know what notes work with your chords when adding melodies ,etc..

Aha! So in other words, notes in the scale of C major will work as a melody line for chords in that key ? Really stupid question, I know, but WTF... I feel I'm appraoching a light bulb moment here...

[Nystul]

Well knowing the scales means you know what notes are in "C major" ... and you will know what notes work with your chords when adding melodies ,etc..

Aha! So in other words, notes in the scale of C major will work as a melody line for chords in that key ? Really stupid question, I know, but WTF... I feel I'm appraoching a light bulb moment here...

Here is kind of extremely basic songwriting scenario: I learn C major scale has no sharps and flats, so it has these notes: CDEFGABC. I can find the I chord in C major just by starting with the first note and skipping notes: CEG. I can find the IV chord in C major by starting with the fourth note of the scale and skipping notes: FAC. I can find the V chord in C major by starting with the fifth note of the scale and skipping notes: GBD. Notice even with just these 3 major chords we have covered every note from the scale at least once. I could fiddle around with keyboard or humming and write some cute melody using notes of the C major scale. I could write this melody on sheet or sequence into computer. For each measure or so of melody, I could try to figure out which of my three chords best fits the melody. That is art rather than science, but the important notes of the melody tend to be a part of the chord.

With just this you could write a simple but decent song. Obviously you will not always want to use just the scale tones or just 3 chords or even just 1 key, but it's a starting point.

[rbarata]

So in other words, notes in the scale of C major will work as a melody line for chords in that key ?

Thinking in a linear way, yes, that's it!

Knowing the scales will allow you to compose or improvise in the blink of an eye because you'll know which notes shall be used, as in your example, if you are in the key of CMaj, then you'll know that the notes to be used are C D E F G A and B (this is the C major scale). You will also know the notes of each chord...this all comes from the scales.

When you know them really well, you won't need to be looking to the circle of fifth's or any other visual aid. All the information you need will come naturally to you.

[lingyai]

This has been very useful, thanks everyone for their comments and patience as I stumble towards the blitheringly obvious...