Hi,
I have this crazy idea for a (Midi) guitar. The idea is to build electronics into a normal guitar so that it will respond to Midi Program Changes (perhaps via an external box) and change the way it is 'connected'. So element selection, phase reversal, volume, tone and all will be 'programmable'.
The idea is to piggy-back on the Roland GK-3 and its 13-pole connector (which has one unassigned wire we could use). If this is not possible we should probably add another connector (preferably some standard like USB or FireWire?).
My "problem" is that I need some help/inspiration with the design of the electronics. In my teens I have fiddled with both analog and digital electronics (building pre-amps and extensions to my home computer up to programming MCU's) and I know assembly programming as well (as well as higher level languages as C++/C#).
I would like to know how to switch the guitar pickups electronically, while preserving the natural tone of the guitar as much as possible. Then I also need to read positions of pots etc. My guess is that I need some MCU in there as well...
Any suggestions are most appreciated.
Crazy idea. Need help. Guitar with Midi In
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- KVRian
- 522 posts since 19 Jul, 2007 from Netherlands
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 522 posts since 19 Jul, 2007 from Netherlands
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- KVRAF
- 9590 posts since 17 Sep, 2002 from Gothenburg Sweden
There are something called "Digital potentiometer" just google it for your favourite supplier. Or use a vactrol.
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 522 posts since 19 Jul, 2007 from Netherlands
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- KVRAF
- 9590 posts since 17 Sep, 2002 from Gothenburg Sweden
Just got one a few days ago but haven't really used it yet. What seems to be Arduinos biggest strength is the amount of libraries available for it making it a good choice IMO.obiwanjacobi wrote:Yep, got it. Thanx.
Can anyone make a recommendation on what control board to use?
I was thinking on using a Arduino board. Are they any good?
There are smaller,faster,mo better ones but you're mainly on your own then. But if you're doing pretty basic stuff that might not matter.
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- KVRist
- 299 posts since 15 Apr, 2004
Arduino is very nice but if you are buiding stuff into a guitar you might want something smaller. Maybe a teensy?
http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/
http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/
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- KVRist
- 377 posts since 19 Jul, 2011 from Right Here, Right Now
you also have u-hid http://www.u-hid.com/ which has a nano option http://www.u-hid.com/home/uhid_nano.php
Arduino also has a nano board http://arduino.cc/en/Guide/ArduinoNano
Arduino also has a nano board http://arduino.cc/en/Guide/ArduinoNano
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 522 posts since 19 Jul, 2007 from Netherlands
Thanx for the link. That is 'teensy' indeedlazerkind wrote:Arduino is very nice but if you are buiding stuff into a guitar you might want something smaller. Maybe a teensy?
http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/
I think Arduino also has some smaller models like the mini and nano, but I dont think it is as small as the smallest teensy and indeed an excellent choice for building into a guitar.
Thanx again.
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- KVRAF
- 9590 posts since 17 Sep, 2002 from Gothenburg Sweden
I've been meaning to buy the Teensy for a while,it's an interesting platform. The main attractions for me is the USB implementation and the fact it runs like a HID which makes it really easy to interface to a computer.
The Arduino Nano is really small as well.I have one and it's the size of my thumb. It is 16 pins long whereas the tiniest teensy is 12 so it's a tad smaller.
The Arduino Nano is really small as well.I have one and it's the size of my thumb. It is 16 pins long whereas the tiniest teensy is 12 so it's a tad smaller.
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- KVRAF
- 13444 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany
I can't supply any answers to this thread, but if you are getting along, PLEASE keep us posted in this thread, if possible with detailed instructions.
Personally, I don't know shit about programming and what not, but for a number of years by now, I keep wishing for a "totally integrated guitar system" (or whatever). All of the available systems fall completely short on that.
Just one thing I may add: Several years ago (uhm, must be like almost 20 or so already) I borrowed a guitar from a colleague (he's more of an electronic dude rather than a guitar player) and what he did was routing the signal of each PU out of the guitar through some sort of multicore into a switching/controlling unit that ended up in his pedalboard. PUs were then switched via some (rather early I think - don't remember the model) MIDI switcher and the volume was controlled via a foot pedal.
Apart from PU switching (which I personally prefer to do manually, at least as far as the current state of technology goes) you couldn't do much unusual things with that setup, but it was already quite interesting that I could switch the PUs along with the presets of the GP8 I was probably using (hm, might have been something else... it's really a long time ago).
Taking this idea a bit further: To me, it'd probably be a nice idea to skip the idea of signals being actually switched/controlled on the guitar itself.
Why not route the signals of each PU through some multicore and route them straight into multiple ins of whatever soundcard - of course you'd need some HQ multicore (which raises the problem of material weight, flexibility, connectors and what not...) and decent separate instrument level ins.
But once that is done, you'd have the ultimate freedom in whatever you desire (assuming you can get low enough latencies). You could separately mix and match each and every PU, you could process them individually and what not.
As far as onboard (read: straight on the guitar) control goes, you could then go strictly digital and do whatever sound modifications inside your software of choice (honestly: I wouldn't happen to know a software suiting these special needs). All the PU switching and controlling could then be done on either side of the signal path, you could do it straight on the guitar or inside the computer.
Taking this even more further: What about adding hex PU to that picture? Assuming you have a device that would split the signal into 6 separate ones (there's one already, I just fail to find the link right now) you could then as well use monophonic signal to (MIDI) synth plugins (which work almost as well as the usual guitar-to-MIDI converters, sometimes even better...), but as you deal with 6 individual instances of them, you could as well play polyphonic stuff. Also, just slapping a distortion onto the signal of 6 individual strings can be quite an experience (Rolands VG series allows for that and I remember checking out a "polydistortion" unit of whatever exotic developer ages ago, which was also based on a hex PU input). All of a sudden using distortion won't result in all those (sometimes wanted, sometimes nasty) sympathetic effects between strings. It's really almost synth alike already.
Oh well, as said, sorry for not being able to help you, also sorry for probably taking this too far, but as a guitar player who is really interested in adding unusual sound sculpting options to his system, I couldn't resist.
Cheers
Sascha
Personally, I don't know shit about programming and what not, but for a number of years by now, I keep wishing for a "totally integrated guitar system" (or whatever). All of the available systems fall completely short on that.
Just one thing I may add: Several years ago (uhm, must be like almost 20 or so already) I borrowed a guitar from a colleague (he's more of an electronic dude rather than a guitar player) and what he did was routing the signal of each PU out of the guitar through some sort of multicore into a switching/controlling unit that ended up in his pedalboard. PUs were then switched via some (rather early I think - don't remember the model) MIDI switcher and the volume was controlled via a foot pedal.
Apart from PU switching (which I personally prefer to do manually, at least as far as the current state of technology goes) you couldn't do much unusual things with that setup, but it was already quite interesting that I could switch the PUs along with the presets of the GP8 I was probably using (hm, might have been something else... it's really a long time ago).
Taking this idea a bit further: To me, it'd probably be a nice idea to skip the idea of signals being actually switched/controlled on the guitar itself.
Why not route the signals of each PU through some multicore and route them straight into multiple ins of whatever soundcard - of course you'd need some HQ multicore (which raises the problem of material weight, flexibility, connectors and what not...) and decent separate instrument level ins.
But once that is done, you'd have the ultimate freedom in whatever you desire (assuming you can get low enough latencies). You could separately mix and match each and every PU, you could process them individually and what not.
As far as onboard (read: straight on the guitar) control goes, you could then go strictly digital and do whatever sound modifications inside your software of choice (honestly: I wouldn't happen to know a software suiting these special needs). All the PU switching and controlling could then be done on either side of the signal path, you could do it straight on the guitar or inside the computer.
Taking this even more further: What about adding hex PU to that picture? Assuming you have a device that would split the signal into 6 separate ones (there's one already, I just fail to find the link right now) you could then as well use monophonic signal to (MIDI) synth plugins (which work almost as well as the usual guitar-to-MIDI converters, sometimes even better...), but as you deal with 6 individual instances of them, you could as well play polyphonic stuff. Also, just slapping a distortion onto the signal of 6 individual strings can be quite an experience (Rolands VG series allows for that and I remember checking out a "polydistortion" unit of whatever exotic developer ages ago, which was also based on a hex PU input). All of a sudden using distortion won't result in all those (sometimes wanted, sometimes nasty) sympathetic effects between strings. It's really almost synth alike already.
Oh well, as said, sorry for not being able to help you, also sorry for probably taking this too far, but as a guitar player who is really interested in adding unusual sound sculpting options to his system, I couldn't resist.
Cheers
Sascha
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
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- KVRAF
- 3002 posts since 24 Nov, 2003 from Heidelberg&Hamburg
I know this post is in 99,999% of cases leading nowhere.obiwanjacobi wrote:Hi,
I have this crazy idea...
But why don't you try to simply write to guitarists who would love the idea and toyed with slightly/ only very slightly similar things in the past? If I were you and had 1% of your knowledge about that, I'd write directly to Jan Akkerman, for example.
Yes, of course, he won't answer- but who knows? He played those Roland-midi-things, toyed with a lot of ideas (and was bashed years later by some fragile egos in german KEYS or KEYBOARD magazines^^, I have no clue, why).
And even if what he did or wants now was totally unrelated to what you'd want to get in the end - a simple letter (hopefully answered with some "Hey, I know this guy who helped me in 198X, maybe his company knows this and that" and so on^^) would not be such a bad idea. There is always a smaaaalll chance you'd get recommendations. And we'd get the description later
What a lovely idea or a (midi)guitar!
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 522 posts since 19 Jul, 2007 from Netherlands
I got this idea when I was looking into the Roland GK-3 hex divided pickup.
The 13-pole cable that runs from the guitar to the synth (or midi converter like a GI-20) has the six separate audio signals running through it, along with a 'digital' volume and 2 switches. There is one unused wire...
The ideas I got so far include
- outputting a stereo guitar signal
I think you'll get a wide sound if you use different PUs for left and right. I really like the idea of outputting each PU individually. That way I could offload all the electronics from the guitar. Have to give the cable that will run from the guitar to the amp or some box in between some thought though especially in combination with the 13-pole cable from the GK-3.
- built-in (software) tuner
I have that on an old Casio Midi guitar and its really handy. The Arduino supports a 10-bit on-board ADC. I think that's enough.
- built-in pre-amp
If we're already using a power supply in the guitar, why not? I also want to be able to draw power from a normal Mic Phantom power output or at least have the supply outside the guitar. But battery powered operation should be possible too.
- and of course the patches
I'm still trying to figure out how to program these patches on the guitar itself without having to install LCD displays etc. I was thinking a few simple buttons and some LEDs would be enough. Optionally I could generate audio feedback on the guitar signal output.
I'm also thinking of fitting an USB connector to the back of the guitar to enable computer/software assisted guitar patch programming and perhaps also upload new firmware that way.
I just ordered the Arduino Uno board and some ICs for the analog switches and potentiometers I need. I stuck with the uno initially just to get a prototype and am planning on replacing it for a nano when all is working well.
The 13-pole cable that runs from the guitar to the synth (or midi converter like a GI-20) has the six separate audio signals running through it, along with a 'digital' volume and 2 switches. There is one unused wire...
The ideas I got so far include
- outputting a stereo guitar signal
I think you'll get a wide sound if you use different PUs for left and right. I really like the idea of outputting each PU individually. That way I could offload all the electronics from the guitar. Have to give the cable that will run from the guitar to the amp or some box in between some thought though especially in combination with the 13-pole cable from the GK-3.
- built-in (software) tuner
I have that on an old Casio Midi guitar and its really handy. The Arduino supports a 10-bit on-board ADC. I think that's enough.
- built-in pre-amp
If we're already using a power supply in the guitar, why not? I also want to be able to draw power from a normal Mic Phantom power output or at least have the supply outside the guitar. But battery powered operation should be possible too.
- and of course the patches
I'm still trying to figure out how to program these patches on the guitar itself without having to install LCD displays etc. I was thinking a few simple buttons and some LEDs would be enough. Optionally I could generate audio feedback on the guitar signal output.
I'm also thinking of fitting an USB connector to the back of the guitar to enable computer/software assisted guitar patch programming and perhaps also upload new firmware that way.
I just ordered the Arduino Uno board and some ICs for the analog switches and potentiometers I need. I stuck with the uno initially just to get a prototype and am planning on replacing it for a nano when all is working well.
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 522 posts since 19 Jul, 2007 from Netherlands
@Klemperer
For now this is just a hobby project. When I have it working in a way that is not too geeky or awkward, I will contact other people to see what they think or come up with. I draw from my own experience at this moment and if no-one wants it, I, at least, have something that works for me.
@simonden
It seems I missed your post, sorry about that. I tried to find a local dealer but couldn't so I went with the Arduino.
It seems to me, from browsing YouTube and some other sites (like Element14) that the Arduino is used by a lot of people in very different ways. I also think that it is a cheap solution and that fits me right at this moment. Once I have a working prototype, I plan to minify (using SMD) the electronics and perhaps design my custom PCB. But it is my experience that you should start these projects as simple as possible and build from there.
Thanx everybody for your contributions.
For now this is just a hobby project. When I have it working in a way that is not too geeky or awkward, I will contact other people to see what they think or come up with. I draw from my own experience at this moment and if no-one wants it, I, at least, have something that works for me.
@simonden
It seems I missed your post, sorry about that. I tried to find a local dealer but couldn't so I went with the Arduino.
It seems to me, from browsing YouTube and some other sites (like Element14) that the Arduino is used by a lot of people in very different ways. I also think that it is a cheap solution and that fits me right at this moment. Once I have a working prototype, I plan to minify (using SMD) the electronics and perhaps design my custom PCB. But it is my experience that you should start these projects as simple as possible and build from there.
Thanx everybody for your contributions.
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 522 posts since 19 Jul, 2007 from Netherlands
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- KVRist
- 377 posts since 19 Jul, 2011 from Right Here, Right Now
No problem - I just had a look and the Teensy and looks cool. I really like this:obiwanjacobi wrote:@simonden
It seems I missed your post, sorry about that. I tried to find a local dealer but couldn't so I went with the Arduino.