midi or usb?

[puerileboy]

I am putting together my first ever exclusive VSTi rig for live use. Where I am having a hang up is my keyboard connections. I use USB in my studio as everything pretty much gets hooked up and forgotten, but I am VERY concerned about how fragile USB connectors are, also I have some legacy equipment that have midi ports only (no USB).

My first thought was to run midi cables from my keyboards to a midi interface (such as a Midisport 4X4) and then USB into the computer, or midi cables to a Midimerge 4 and then to an audio interface midi port. However since everything is eventually going down to USB, perhaps I should just adopt it and run all my keyboards to USB hub (I can always use a UNO to connect the legacy gear).

Anyone have any thoughts about using and or securing USB cables and connections live?

I do not see a lot in the way of Midi gear being produced anymore aside from niche products, so I am guessing everyone is adopting USB as the preferred connection and maybe I should just make peace with it now.

[tombuck]

great topic. i had to move to MIDI, here's why:

In Catabile, USB connected devices are given names from the OS. In my case, one of my controllers is a m-Audio Keystation Pro 88. For whatever reason, once that device gets plugged into another USB port - either on a hub, or another port on my laptop, the OS gives it another name, something like a [1] after it. As a result, all controller assignments in Cantabile assigned to that device name have to be reprogrammed for EVERY session. Huge PAIN.

Since I have to use a USB hub for all my connections, i was finding my USB hubs would sometimes fail (they would just die). As a result, when i plug in my devices into a new backup USB hub, some of the controllers get new names. I've had this happen right before gigs, where i had to frantically scramble to re-assign all my controller assignments.

Because of that, i decide to shift my MIDI communication to the actual MIDI ports. I still use the USB cable to the controller, but only for power. I have a MOTU micro lite USB MIDI interface. One nice advantage i've found from this configuration is I can hot-swap my midi connections without restarting Cantabile. I've been using this configuration for over a year now and works perfectly fine. Another advantage is you have redundancy in your MIDI connection - for example if your MIDI interface dies, you could resort to USB. Or if a USB hub fails you just need to get power to your controller.

Moving forward, the new version of Cantabile will support virtual MIDI ports, see Brad's video. With that, i can finally get away from the USB naming issue thereby allowing me to reliably shift back to USB exclusively for my MIDI communication.

Incidentally, my laptop has 3 USB ports, all are used:
1) USB for M-Audio Fasttrack Ultra 8R
2) USB for MOTU Microlite
3) USB to power USB 7 port hub

[puerileboy]

TomBuck, thanks for the reply and your opinion!

I am glad to see I am not the only one who has suffered (albiet only mentally so far for me) on this issue.

Good points all, things I never would have thought of until after getting out there and doing it a while, especially the redundancy aspects. I really appreciate your input!

[TiUser]

Let me also comment...

Neutric offers very rugged screwable USB connectors. As usual these are unfortunately not used with music equipment. But if you consider building an own rig this might be a choice to know about.

Indeed usb hubs introduce another level of instability hazard. When ever possible do not use usb hubs. On a standard PC better put in another cheap usb interface card.

I myself struggle even at home with some usb cable issues. On my touchscreen the cable sits relatively loose and when it moves it can electrically disconnect. Then the driver disconnects forever and does not reconnect until I do a hard reboot! It's easy to imagine similar effects with usb keyboard gear.

Professional usb midi interfaces come with better drivers than many keyboards where the worst case for a serious live musician is really "plug and play"...

As Tom said the changing names with midi devices in Windows is a known issue. I think it's worth to repeat Cantabile 3 will address this issue - it has been discussed for long here. Meanwhile virtual midi cables like "loopMidi" and routing via "MidiOx" is another option to resolve the naming issue.

[puerileboy]

Thanks for your comments TIUser!

So I have gone ahead and bought a midisport and feel better about the security of using midi connections. It is on order so I still have to configure it all.

By the way, I am specifically a keyboardist, and looking for an audio interface that would give me 8 analog outs was daunting, I really have no need for inputs, which I think is the position a lot of keyboardists are in. Just for kicks I picked up an ESI Gigaport not thinking something for $120 would be much more than a toy, and have been pleasantly shocked by how good the DA converters are. It is plasticy and feels cheap, but I think with a small amount of care will probably last a few years.

[TiUser]

D/A conversion quality isn't a too big issue today. I guess A/D conversion is more critical. For live use you also don't necessarily need fancy studio grade gear. But again what's important are the drivers.

You can even use the build in soundcards of a PC with Asio4All driver - if 2 channels are enough or you can settle down with some fancy surrond channels setup. For first checks you definitely don't need external audio interfaces.

When I remember right from some other posters comments RME interfaces are great. Drivers are great and HW architecture is too. You can get more out of the same pc (running more plugins or lower latency) with these. Unfortunately RME isn't on the low cost side... but probably worth knowing.

I've seen the ESI Gigaport. Probably the HiFi like cinch connectors are not to every live musicians taste. Usually this is -10dB level stuff too while pros prefer the stronger +4dB level outputs.

Besides in more complex live setups there may be other problems than D/A conversion - like ground loops, external hum and noise. It can be expensive to resolve such issues with quality audio transformers. In case remember the name "Palmer" for all sorts of value priced quality audio transformers...

[puerileboy]

Having now some time on the Gigaport.. I have to say it is not ready for primetime.. while it was easy to configure, I experienced drop outs and some pops and crackles no amount of buffer setting/sample rate/latency settings could solve.. my T61 DPC latency is down to a maximum of 60us, and averaging 40us..

[TiUser]

Your DPC results sound amazing.

Have you tried moving and resizing windows during DPC check?
On my machine this showed quickly the truth about graphics drivers influences...

Did you run DPC Check for a longer time?
Spikes can occur sporadically with minutes of friendly behavior inbetween.

Finally
I personally experienced that general cpu load drops when you minimize Cantabile window.

[puerileboy]

Okay.. maybe I am not running DPC checker right.. those numbers are at rest .. no apps running, I tried running DPC checker with Reaper running and my system got very frustrated and disturbed.

[TiUser]

I am not sure about how to "run DPC checker right"... just wanted to note my experiences.

Try to start Cantabile while DPC checker is running...

Ever examined Cantabiles load meter while you're loading a new session?...

When it comes to details I personally don't trust Win PC's. All music software is in a way out of resource control. That's not a matter of HW and how fast it ever will be - it's an OS issue. Even when we try to "optimize" our machines the lack of control still remains.

The difference between HW and SW is: On HW you get voice stealing, on a Win PC with SW you get audio disaster, pops, crackles which is simply out of control.

I don't tell this to fuel the HW/SW debate - I just want to point out differences.