Composing Orchestration using MIDI file TIPS&TRICKS needed

[jontah]

Hey!

So I've decided to try and get better at making orchestrations using my newly arrived East West Symphonic Orchestra Silver (which sounds amazing imo).

While experimenting with the sound library, I've run into a few problems:

First, what I did:

I set up my orchester library in Logic pro 9, using Multitimbral and inserting and routing each instrument to different instrument inputs (in this case I only used 1 input where I have the 10 Violas (it's a bank that is done by East West), 11 Violins, 10 Cellos and 9 Double Basses), they are all correctly routed to each separate AUX channel in my mixer so it's all fine there.

Then I imported my MIDI (which in this case is "The Fighting Spirit", which is a composition in one of the Naruto Episodes (I thought I'd make am orchester club version out of it!)

I made the Violas play a fifth BELOW the Violins, the Cellos are playing an octave BELOW the Violas and the Double basses are playing an octave BELOW the Cellos. Everything is using the same Articulations so far (I haven't come to the point that I'm about to set the different articulations yet since I'm stuck here with the problems) and everything is playing the exact same MIDI, just that it's transposed so it adapts to each instrument better.

To my main problem:

The East West "Play" offers different articulations, which are placed far down on the keyboard, all to the left. Now, as I stated above, I have transposed the different instruments in my PIANO ROLL in Logic Pro 9, this made the instruments to change articulations since some of the notes apparently are crossing the articulations notes on my keyboard (I don't know how or why, since I'm only playing a simple melody without chords even, just a melody with single notes. But I suppose since it's a multiinstrument inside of East West's "Play", it keeps triggering the articulations due to it's layered in different octaves and stuff inside of lets say for example "10 Cellos" do you understand what I mean/think it is?)

Other than that, I'd like to know a few tips and tricks about MIDI orchestration in Logic Pro 9.

Here's a list of what I want to know/have understanding of, so I can practice and achieve good results:

1. Assigning CC11 in Logic Pro 9 (I think it is CC11, correct me if I'm wrong) to my MODWHEEL so I can modulate the Breath control of each instrument (really important for good dynamics. I've looked at this tutorial for getting that tips: )

2. A list of how the different instruments should be transposed. Lets say Violins a fifth above Violas, Cellos an octave under violas, but what about the rest of the instruments?
Also, I'm wondering here, is this kind of a RULE? are there any other techniques here of transposing a string instrument? or does it always have to be i.e. Violins a fifth above Violas?

3. Different articulations, when to apply them? I understand that composing orchestras are hard and it requires alot of practice, which I'm definately willing to give. Alot of time practicing this. But when do you USUALLY apply different articulations? is it just when you feel to do it, or is it to give contrast for, lets say, sustained notes? (typically on sustained notes, you'd apply a staccato type of sound to break usual pattern that is playing, right?)

4. How do I achieve a big fat full orchestra that sound good with all the strings together? (Beginning with only strings for now, will add woodwinds, brasses and stuff afterwards, I gotta learn each instrument-family for itself first, to achieve the best sound in each family first, or should I? what do you recommend?)

5. Portamento! How the heck do I control the portamento on sustained notes in East West Symphonic Orchestra Silver?
Clearly you only want the portamento to be applied on the sustained notes, but how do I automate this/assign a controller for this?

I'm also wondering: is it wrong to use the same MIDI file on all instrument channels? Does it sound bad and mechanical in the end if I do so?


I'm really having a hard time learning this piece of software, since East West didn't even give me a manual on the actual player, and I've searched around, there's no new manual out on the net covering all it's features, as far as I know. If you guys have any link or got a video tutorial explaining it fully, I'd highly appreciate that!


As usual, replies are HIGHLY appreciated

Thanks a bunch!

Best regards,

J

[jontah]

oh yeah here's a video so you can see what I'm troubleshooting!



Answers are really appreciated!

Thanks.

[meldavid]

I suggest you start here:

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/sho ... -Woodwinds

Yeah I know it's for Garritan, but it goes through the basic concepts of orchestration. You really do need to just jam a lot with each instrument to learn it's range of notes and expression, and take note of what sounds cool.
Don't expect to import a MIDI file, quickly assign its channels, and make it sound good straight away.

It'll sound better if each instrument had a different MIDI sequence to play. It's the slight differences between violin 1, violin 2, etc that can make it sound more realistic, becuase it's not robots that are playing the musical phrases perfectly.

When you first import a MIDI file, perhaps assign it to a piano first, sometthing that spans the whole keyboard range, so you can listen to what notes the MIDI channel is actually playing.

Certain instruments like flute and violin only has a limited range so the lower notes on the keyboard are usually used for keyswitching articulations. But the MIDI track you imported is probably trying to play a melody rather than keyswitching.

A MIDI file can have sequence data for several instruments, so you will need to figure out which MIDI channel/track plays what instrument and assign them accordingly.

Again it's easier to just asign each MIDI part to a piano to begin with, if you don't know what instrument its supposed to be assigned to and then start assigning each MIDI part to an instrument.


There's an awful lot of stuff to learn. But you have the rest of your life to absorb it all so take it easy and enjoy the ride.

[james_mcfadyen]

Only once using GM sounds has been mastered, can you truly learn this art.

[jontah]

Only once using GM sounds has been mastered, can you truly learn this art.

Evolve please? What is GM?

I've watched the Groove3 tutorial about MIDI orchestration, learned alot, but there's still alot to do.

@meldavid, thanks alot! great stuff, but I cannot find part 2, I searched on the forum and on their homepage -.-

The thing with the MIDI is that the melody SHOULDN'T be different. I just want it to sound like an orchestra, but still keeping the MIDI since it's an orchestral "remix" from the original Naruto chapter.

It's similar to the groove3 video, really.

Thanks!

[meldavid]

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/for ... on-On-line

[shadoe42]

i don't have mine handy as my ilok is in process of getting replaced. But I recall that East West has non key swtiched versions of the articularitions. The Key Switched ones I believe are marked with KS or some such in the title. Try using the articulations that do not have KS in the title.

[jontah]

i don't have mine handy as my ilok is in process of getting replaced. But I recall that East West has non key swtiched versions of the articularitions. The Key Switched ones I believe are marked with KS or some such in the title. Try using the articulations that do not have KS in the title.

yep this I know but I still want all the keyswitches!

[james_mcfadyen]

Only once using GM sounds has been mastered, can you truly learn this art.

Evolve please? What is GM?

General MIDI - Basically the cheap nasty sounds from soundcards.

It's the long way to learn, but the ONLY way as far as I'm concerned. When you go to a [good] college to learn music production, you don't automatically get these posh libraries - you have to work with GM and make it sound fantastic. It can be done.

Only once this is mastered will you UNDERSTAND how to go about using these nice libraries like the EastWest. Knowledge is only part of it, you have to understand it - it's not about tips, it's about getting your hands dirty and working fro the bottom up. Hard work, but hey that's the music business

If it ain't hard work, you're doing it wrong. Fact.

[fmr]

I think your first mistake is you don't actually understand what is an "orchestration". Orchestration is not playing violas a fifth below violins, and cellos an octave, and basses two octaves. Actually, you can have the cellos playing in the violin range, above the violas, and have things sound right.
Orchestration is "dressing" the music, using the different timbres to give colour and life to it. But there's a lot to understand, before you will be able to do that.
You should first try to read the tutorials that Garritan has (or had), whoich are based on the excellent treaty by Rimsky-Korsakov, and, before everything else, study each instrument - ranges, registers, what is it good for, what's the best use of it, and how it fits, both alone and with others.
Believe me, this is a "looong" journey, to do it OK, and will involve read a lot and listen to a lot of examples.

[jontah]

Only once using GM sounds has been mastered, can you truly learn this art.

Evolve please? What is GM?

General MIDI - Basically the cheap nasty sounds from soundcards.

It's the long way to learn, but the ONLY way as far as I'm concerned. When you go to a [good] college to learn music production, you don't automatically get these posh libraries - you have to work with GM and make it sound fantastic. It can be done.

Only once this is mastered will you UNDERSTAND how to go about using these nice libraries like the EastWest. Knowledge is only part of it, you have to understand it - it's not about tips, it's about getting your hands dirty and working fro the bottom up. Hard work, but hey that's the music business

If it ain't hard work, you're doing it wrong. Fact.

Hey james! thanks alot for the answer.

Where can I really hardcore study General MIDI to know all about it? any tips? I'd like to really get into it, if that's what it takes.

Thanks alot.

Best,

J

[james_mcfadyen]

1) Google for tips and how-to's
2) Concentrate on tone/timbre and don't worry about "articulations" - they will only serve to make a good orchestration sound realistic but always serve to make a bad orchestration even worse.
3) Understand the orchestra, how it is made up and what constitutes an orchestral sound. I believe the Garritan website has the Risky-Korsakov orchestration book online? (This is very, very important, for this is how you learn to write for orchestra.
4) Doubling is very important. This takes times to learn (the above book online will help here).
5) Experiment yourself with the General MIDI soundset - it has all the sounds of the orchestra with none of the programming headache of using advanced sample libraries.
6) Learn how to use MIDI messages (CC, Pitchbend, Volume, Velocity, etc) - these will help build a dynamic performance.
6) Start small. Concentrate on making only a few bars of well-orchestrated music. Get it the way you want it.
7) If you can read music (fantastic!!!) - read scores. Loads of them!! - You can download them here for free: http://www.http://imslp.org

Hope that helps.

[james_mcfadyen]

I think I might have a recording I made over 10 years ago, armed with nothing more than a GM Keyboard (Yamaha PSR-620) - Which I still have, and a hardware sequencer, the Roland MC-50.

I'll see if I can find it for you and you can see what's possible just by using the General MIDI soundset.

[jontah]

1) Google for tips and how-to's
2) Concentrate on tone/timbre and don't worry about "articulations" - they will only serve to make a good orchestration sound realistic but always serve to make a bad orchestration even worse.
3) Understand the orchestra, how it is made up and what constitutes an orchestral sound. I believe the Garritan website has the Risky-Korsakov orchestration book online? (This is very, very important, for this is how you learn to write for orchestra.
4) Doubling is very important. This takes times to learn (the above book online will help here).
5) Experiment yourself with the General MIDI soundset - it has all the sounds of the orchestra with none of the programming headache of using advanced sample libraries.
6) Learn how to use MIDI messages (CC, Pitchbend, Volume, Velocity, etc) - these will help build a dynamic performance.
6) Start small. Concentrate on making only a few bars of well-orchestrated music. Get it the way you want it.
7) If you can read music (fantastic!!!) - read scores. Loads of them!! - You can download them here for free: http://www.http://imslp.org

Hope that helps.

Honestly, I don't know exactly what you mean with General MIDI.

What I do know about orchestras now:

Some basic transposing of the different instruments in an orchestra.
The articulations, their meaning and so on.

Expressions, I know the use of vibrato and breathcontrol etc.

I guess I have a whole lot more to know about and study.

But, I watched a tutorial from Groove3 called "MIDI orchestration", containing 25 videos, where much are explained and concluded/shortened.

It seems like "General MIDI" is a big, wide term.. and does not have anything to do with orchestras, am I right?
I read this on wikipedia. Or I might be mistaken?

So lets say I would really sit down and study the whole content and book of Risky-Korsakov. Then what? What's the next step from there?

Also, I'm wondering, is it really essential to read through and study these things? isn't it better to just practice and try how it sounds and try to work around it that way? I don't know, that might be hard, or?

Oh well..

I would appreciate if you could share that!

Thanks alot.

Best regards,

J

[Nanakai]

Honestly, I don't know exactly what you mean with General MIDI.

Man, I hope you're not young, cause if you are, I am getting old!

General MIDI is a standardized mapping of instruments. So, no matter what keyboard or sound card you bought, every MIDI code would trigger the same instrument. This helped consumers at home play with their Casio keyboards, but it also allowed composers to send out a score that anyone could play in their computer. PC games, for instance, often shipped without a recorded soundtrack, instead just including the MIDI score which triggered the sound font in the end user's sound card.

The reason Mr. McFayden is suggesting that you start with general MIDI is that it provides a simple way for you to practice the essential skills of orchestration without having to concern yourself with the complexities of your shiny new sampler. Plus, because of their low quality, making general MIDI sounds into a decent orchestration will hone your skills more than memorizing articulations.

No one is suggesting that you don't learn your software. But the EastWest sets are geared towards people you already have this skill set. Go through the manual that came with your software, and then put it aside to practice your orchestration on simpler software. Give it a month and you'll be surprised at your progress.

Here's a bunch of classical music scores in MIDI
http://www.classicalmidiconnection.com/renaissance.html