Brass libraries and breath/wind controller?

[lfm]

Hi

When using a breath/wind controller and blow harder - what happends MIDI-wise?

Is it aftertouch that is sent?

Then it must not generate new attack, but just some kind of legato thingy I guess, to play other sample than that already sounding?

Does all/most brass libraries support this?

Thanks.

[electro]

CC2 (Breath) ts just a continuous MIDI CC message no different than the Keyboard's Mod Wheel (CC1).

A breath controller automatically uses airspeed to calculate MIDI velocity (0-127).

[jancivil]

an instrument tends to be set up to use such a controller as 'expression' (a type of secondary volume) so that if your continuous controller value is 0 you aren't getting any sound. Cf., Sample Modeling; CC11 has to have values from the device or sequencer.

in practice, the available breath controller, Yamaha, uses a box by Midi Solutions and requires mapping thru another, typically keyboard controller, eg., to CC2. And for some things remapping again to CC11, or re-assigning that instrument to correspond. I had one but I ended up selling it as taking up more space than it was worth. The idea is of course that blowing will give you a 'realistic' envelope as per the used CC but frankly I didn't find drawing values in the lanes, or another manual control particularly deficient compared to it.

A wind controller is another matter and is geared towards wind players, there is more concern per the embouchere and you have to know fingerings.

[Tony Ostinato]

weirdly, yamaha doesnt even make their breath controller anymore.

they still make the wx5 windsynth so i got 3 just in case they discontinue that too.

wx5 is a fast and easy way to do brass tracks and i use wivi and sample modeling with it.

[lfm]

CC2 (Breath) ts just a continuous MIDI CC message no different than the Keyboard's Mod Wheel (CC1).

A breath controller automatically uses airspeed to calculate MIDI velocity (0-127).

Thanks for clarifying.

I will map a fader on a controller to CC02 and see what happends with Mojo Horn section if any support for this.

[lfm]

an instrument tends to be set up to use such a controller as 'expression' (a type of secondary volume) so that if your continuous controller value is 0 you aren't getting any sound. Cf., Sample Modeling; CC11 has to have values from the device or sequencer.

in practice, the available breath controller, Yamaha, uses a box by Midi Solutions and requires mapping thru another, typically keyboard controller, eg., to CC2. And for some things remapping again to CC11, or re-assigning that instrument to correspond. I had one but I ended up selling it as taking up more space than it was worth. The idea is of course that blowing will give you a 'realistic' envelope as per the used CC but frankly I didn't find drawing values in the lanes, or another manual control particularly deficient compared to it.

A wind controller is another matter and is geared towards wind players, there is more concern per the embouchere and you have to know fingerings.

Thanks.

Yes, it seems that wind and breath controllers never really hit a big market. I looked at a wind controller two years ago - and it was about $400 or so.

One would want a change in timbre as well, when increasing pressure. As of now it seems expression is pure volume only.

And I guess CC02 stuff would then go from sustain point in samples - legato style - not to get another attack which would sound awkward?

[lfm]

weirdly, yamaha doesnt even make their breath controller anymore.

they still make the wx5 windsynth so i got 3 just in case they discontinue that too.

wx5 is a fast and easy way to do brass tracks and i use wivi and sample modeling with it.

Interesting you mention Wivi - I tested that. And think I will go for Band & Orchestral Brass which the demo really corresponded more to.

You can confirm this supports Cc02 breath stuff?

I was about to put a question to Wallander Instruments about that.

[Tony Ostinato]

weirdly, yamaha doesnt even make their breath controller anymore.

they still make the wx5 windsynth so i got 3 just in case they discontinue that too.

wx5 is a fast and easy way to do brass tracks and i use wivi and sample modeling with it.

Interesting you mention Wivi - I tested that. And think I will go for Band & Orchestral Brass which the demo really corresponded more to.

You can confirm this supports Cc02 breath stuff?

I was about to put a question to Wallander Instruments about that.

its among the best for breath control, timbre and volume or just timbre etc. very flexible.

heres my youtube of my setup:



its a little old and ive since switched from nuendo to reaper and use midichords instead of chorder and midiPBcurve, both from insert piz here.

i plan to do a video of the new setup after im a little more settled in, i find new stuff all the time with reaper its cool.

[Tony Ostinato]

thoughts about the windsynth market as you mentioned, it seems relative. they dont sell as much as conventional stuff like keyboards for sure.

and i kinda thought id be like one of 2-5 guys in town playing it but i've run into several other players now and the musicians union listings here have 3 separate categories for windsynth, analog windsynth (wtf is that?), and digital windsynth and i think maybe even wind synthesizer (reed) which is what im listed under. it makes no sense. theres about 20 guys in each and there isnt much duplication.

i know maybe even more guys who have them but they arent playing em live.

and i kinda forgot a good basic synth tip for breath control, instead of mapping it to volume map it to filter cutoff frequency. on a lot of my analog synth patches im not using breath control or velocity on volume at all, im just mapping breath control to the filter cutoff frequency.

[jancivil]

One would want a change in timbre as well, when increasing pressure. As of now it seems expression is pure volume only.

CC11 is not different per se than any other continuous controller. when the midi protocol was agreed upon, the manufacturers hard wired CC11, eg., to a function of their gear and the naming followed that. Control Codes are pretty much continuous ctrl., a switch, or the old most significant byte/least significant byte scheme (eg., Bank Control, 0 & 32).

(there is CC4 'foot' which I'm not sure about as it was known to behave different, ie., not useful for certain gear which I'd surmised was a multiple switch instead of continuous. but I don't know what it does really. let alone for a software instrument as I still avoid it out of habit.)

so it's about how the instrument is designed. a soft instrument that does not provide for timbre control won't, while one that does is a matter of assignment. The Sample Modeling way is to set a number of controllers specifically for the behavior of their script and I would go with that and force the controller to that map as there are a number of different assignments to deal with.

[lfm]

and i kinda forgot a good basic synth tip for breath control, instead of mapping it to volume map it to filter cutoff frequency. on a lot of my analog synth patches im not using breath control or velocity on volume at all, im just mapping breath control to the filter cutoff frequency.

Good tip.

I discovered that it's just as easy to remap expression pedal/controller as any other controller on my PCR-800, so that would be really good for filtercutoff or whatever.

For playing around with brass I like J's midi plugins. A really simple one that splits a chord to different channels - and brass instruments.

http://jstuff.wordpress.com/js-midi-tools/

I find it works really well in Reaper.

And adding the random midi note delay will also be a little humanizing feature not to have all instruments like gated - and sounding maybe less authentic.

[lfm]

(there is CC4 'foot' which I'm not sure about as it was known to behave different, ie., not useful for certain gear which I'd surmised was a multiple switch instead of continuous. but I don't know what it does really. let alone for a software instrument as I still avoid it out of habit.)

so it's about how the instrument is designed. a soft instrument that does not provide for timbre control won't, while one that does is a matter of assignment. The Sample Modeling way is to set a number of controllers specifically for the behavior of their script and I would go with that and force the controller to that map as there are a number of different assignments to deal with.

CC04 is often used by edrums as hihat footcontroller as I discovered. But as you say it's up to each vendor to prepare anything, really.

I read the manual for Mojo Horn section and found there is plenty to discover. Huge amount of different legato and switch key modes. So midi mapping is extensive and I'll see what is most usable to get more expressive brass.