Time sig?

[BoyWonder]

Guys, apparently all I need to know is how to count and I can work out a time sig? Well, this works ok for me with 4/4, 2/2 etc, but I struggle to get the counts right in anything else. The very short clip here for instance, what time sig is it in? 7/5? Or is it just the bass that is throwing my counts out?? Any (idiots guide) tips on how to count to find the right sig within this - and any other - track would be really appreciated.


http://picosong.com/w5ia

[jancivil]

the denominator has to be a factor of 2. it can be n/4, n/2, even n/1 etc but n/5 isn't feasible.

the drums there accentuate as though 4/4 but the bass line is six beats long.

so six bars of the drums agrees with four bars of the bass. the vocals seem to follow the bass pattern.
maybe the drummer could only do 4/4 and they went with the ambiguity as cool. :-\

[cron]

The example you posted is in 4/4.

Here's one easy (although not entirely correct) way to think of it. The second number tells you the length of the units involved (4 = whole beat, 8 = half beat, 16 = quarter beat and so on - You'll rarely see a number bigger than 8 ) while the first number tells you how many of them there are in each bar. The second number is actually telling you the length of the unit in terms of quarter note, eighth note and so on but you can usually think of it as 'beats' and you'll be OK.

Although x/8 rhythms often sound very erratic, 6/8 is one notable example where the above method kind of breaks down because it sounds so straightforward and driving. In fact, it sounds like a straight 4/4 if you aren't listening closely. Check out this track for an example:



Sounds like 4/4 with the kick and snare being each beat, right? Listen closely. KICK-hat-hat-SNARE-hat-hat-KICK-hat-hat-SNARE-hat-hat. 6/8. Calling this 4/4 would mislead us about where the beat is. (i.e. KICK-hat-hat-snare-HAT-hat-kick-hat-HAT-snare-hat-hat)

[jancivil]

The example you posted is in 4/4.

again, clearly enough, the bass may as well be in 6/4 there.

Although x/8 rhythms often sound very erratic

to whom? in which cases? why? what a peculiar idea to assert without qualification.

6/8 is one notable example... [here] it sounds like a straight 4/4 if you aren't listening closely. ... Calling this 4/4 would mislead us about where the beat is.)

This is just a matter of perspective. Calling 12/8 "4/4 [with triplet eighths prevailing]" is not per se misleading. The beat in your example [calling 6/8 '4/4' WOULD be misleading because we would have 2/4 in its place bar:bar], from one perspective is 1 and 4 of 6/8. It is not different than saying 1 and 2 in 2/4 but obviously the tempo would be read as 3x slower. If the bass only changes that often it might be easier for some people to call it in 4 or 2.

There is a concept, hemiola where the emphasis as two can be rethought as emphasis in three. 6/8 = 3/4: ONE two three FOUR five six, ONE two THREE four FIVE six. Be more flexible in your thinking.

6/8 with the 'two emphasis' is not different than 2/4 with triplets over it. it's just a matter of a name. The name is useful where it's useful, it's not to be confused for the thing itself.

[cron]

When I said erratic, I just meant that they stand out to somebody who is used to nodding his or head rhythmically. I should have said that they're easy to spot - erratic was a poor choice of words.

Thanks for the expansion on the the 6/8 stuff. I was actually doubting myself there and wondering how it was any different to a 4 with triplet emphasis. Nice to know they're often one and the same. Most of my knowledge of time signatures comes from listening to my prog-rock nut friend wittering on rather than formal training.

I'm not hearing any disagreement between the drums and bass at all in the posted example. Just a loop that goes around every 4 beats. Everything about it screams straightforward 4/4 to me. I'm used to hearing stuff where elements 'slip out' and reunite over a few bars, but I just can't hear anything like that in the posted example. Can you tell me what I'm missing here?

One last thing - I've never understood 2/4. How would I go about telling this apart from 4/4? Are there any sonic differences or is it mostly a readability thing for sheet music?

[jancivil]

2/4 vs 4/4? well, it's a matter of feel... Almost a matter of opinion sometimes. I did a couple of versions of Satie pieces, "Gnossiennes" where he likes this alternate bass, kind of like stride piano and I feel a lot of it in 2, but it's written in 4.

The emphasis in the bass determines that sometimes.

Let's say the bass goes from C to G back and forth ||:one and two and:|| - C for 'one', G for 'two' - that's 2/4. EG: Polka.


Surely the drums in that OP's example are simply 4/4 but notice the cycle of notes in the bass part and how the vocals follow that. My first response was straight 4 but as you see the OP was thrown off and I found out why.

what you surmised with that 4 vs 6 thought was founded in subdivision by two, which gets us into complications not too conducive to the 3/8 or 6/8 thing.

But now you have <ONE two three, FOUR five six, SEVN eight nine, TEN levn twelve> ('12/8') as not different than <ONE //, TWO //, THREE //, FOUR //>


Latin music likes that two vs three feel thing I called 'hemiola'; African music, Flamenco etc, the body likes it...


oh I have to qualify that '3x faster' above; where a sequencer will only take the pulse as quarter note, it's essentially calculating 6/8 as 3/4 so the calculation will be '1.5 times faster' to make that work. On paper, 'MM =' based in the actual pulse is what I have there.

[Nystul]

I've always found 2 vs. 4 to be rather ambiguous, and especially when you add "cut time" into the mix. It's easy enough to think of cut time as 2 half note beats per measure, but historically it seems to have all kinds of cryptic usage. There are cases where famous composers had marked common time on a score or part and then changed to cut time on a revision or other parts, or vice versa. If someone like Beethoven can write up a score and have indecision on what the time signature should be, it's small wonder that the rest of us have doubts.

[jancivil]

Sometimes the conceptualization can lead you places though. I took that Gnoss 1 as 2/2 as a drummer, so simultanously there's a reggae feel and a half time backbeat like slow, hard rock and I'm giving myself all sorts of space...

but the feel changes up, should I have scored it I would have had a number of arguments with myself like you indicate.