What did Borodin mean here?

[danika]

Excerpt from the Polovtsian Dances by Borodin. Can somebody take a look at the second half of measure 21 and explain to me what he was doing by adding the E#?

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/3xe8l40lx2xufds/j10PAHRn0_

(And while I'm at it, can somebody give me the exact format for the Img tags. I couldn't get them to work.)

[JumpingJackFlash]

Excerpt from the Polovtsian Dances by Borodin. Can somebody take a look at the second half of measure 21 and explain to me what he was doing by adding the E#?

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/3xe8l40lx2xufds/j10PAHRn0_

(And while I'm at it, can somebody give me the exact format for the Img tags. I couldn't get them to work.)

Only had a quick look, but it looks like the 7th note of F# minor has been raised into a leading note, a very common occurrence in classical music. - See Harmonic Minor.

The chord would be a diminished seventh on E# over a tonic pedal.

Which has a textbook resolution to the tonic chord.

[Ogg Vorbis]

Excerpt from the Polovtsian Dances by Borodin. Can somebody take a look at the second half of measure 21 and explain to me what he was doing by adding the E#?

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/3xe8l40lx2xufds/j10PAHRn0_

(And while I'm at it, can somebody give me the exact format for the Img tags. I couldn't get them to work.)

E# is quite expected in the key of F# minor.

[NKF]

Excerpt from the Polovtsian Dances by Borodin. Can somebody take a look at the second half of measure 21 and explain to me what he was doing by adding the E#?

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/3xe8l40lx2xufds/j10PAHRn0_

(And while I'm at it, can somebody give me the exact format for the Img tags. I couldn't get them to work.)

Using the dim7 in the key of F# minor over a pedal tonic. Basically a dominant chord over the tonic. Take a listen to Brahms' first symphony, the first minute or so of the first movement. The entire intro has the first motif over the tonic, then once more over the dominant before getting to the exposition.

[jancivil]

use the public link from dropbox, select all of it [you need the extenstion which tells the site it's an image, .gif which yours lacks], click the URL button and it should appear like so:



to make your issue clear if not so already: the harmony in question is spelled: G# B D E# ; vii6/5 (1st inversion 'seventh chord') of F# harmonic minor, over [a pedal tonic] F#.

[danika]

Thanks for both responses.

use the public link from dropbox, select all of it [you need the extenstion which tells the site it's an image, .gif which yours lacks],

The extension was missing, but mainly it was the Share Public Link procedure (which creates a different URL).

to make your issue clear if not so already: the harmony in question is spelled: G# B D E# ; vii6/5 (1st inversion 'seventh chord') of F# harmonic minor, over [a pedal tonic] F#.

So does that mean that the harmony for the first half of the measure is G#dim/F# instead of G#m7b5/F#?

[NKF]

Would be E# dim 7 / F# you don't really indicate inversions over pedal tones because the location of the root is not so important or noticeable.

for the first half, i mean this is all semantics but because the half diminished came from the diatonic chord in the minor mode on the super tonic.

You could all it V / F# with a suspended 9, or a suspended non chord tone which resolves to the E# i guess you could call it as you mentioned but the problem is that you are switching between the functional aspect of harmony that spawned the roman numeral analysis and just chord names. Honestly, there is no right answer. They are just conventions that help people conceptualize what is happening.

[JumpingJackFlash]

You could all it V / F# with a suspended 9, or a suspended non chord tone which resolves to the E# i guess you could call it as you mentioned but the problem is that you are switching between the functional aspect of harmony that spawned the roman numeral analysis and just chord names. Honestly, there is no right answer. They are just conventions that help people conceptualize what is happening.

This might confuse the OP

The first half is a half-diminished seventh chord on G# (over a tonic pedal). Classically, the progression is ii7-vii7-i in F# minor. (Sevenths being diatonic).

Here is a simplified reduction (with pedal omitted):

Though the consecutive fifths there are best not to be imitated!

[jancivil]

the location of the root of any diminished seventh chord can be ambiguous.

speaking of conventions; as per 'you don't indicate inversions where there is a non-chord tone pedal':

in trying to provide information about harmony, I think to do it when it gives the reality of the harmony; here I say it is vii7, as dominant function.

harmony in classical music derives from voice leading; the figure '6/5', in the thinking of harmony preceded the idea of 'chords', in fact.


the move "half-diminished", ie., a diminished triad/minor seventh, to the full diminished is voice leading.
here we are faced with the ambiguities of chromatic music. The harmony contains the spelling E#. Strictly speaking, G#dim7 is spelled G# B D F; G#ø7, G# B D F#. the function of this dim 7th is dominant, ie., vii7; F#-E# is 8-7 as per the key. It is like a 4-3 for a V chord.

hence: "the problem is that you are switching between the functional aspect of harmony that spawned the roman numeral analysis and just chord names". In ful analysis of this music, we're also moving between linear, part-writing thinking & roman numeral analysis.

Both the G#ø7 and G# dim7 are good names if you must have chord names, as is the E#dim7 as vii7; even though a distinction elswhere can be made between the inversions of the diminished seventh, as per function/target. there is a lot of this kind of action in this period of music.

[jancivil]

[is] the harmony for the first half of the measure G#dim/F# instead of G#m7b5/F#?

there isn't a difference except for the conventions of naming. Jazz people call it 'minor seventh flat five' out of a school of thought, classical people 'half-diminished' out of a school of thought.

in the figuring for analysis that G#ø7 can be said to be in 4/2 inversion, the figured bass convention for 'seventh in the bass'. NB: that abbreviates '6/4/2'.

that figure is arrived at out of comparing the content of the chord with the bass. F# to D = 6; F# to B = 4; F# to G# = 2.

but calling that full E#dim 7/F# bass as per a pedal F# is conventionally more desirable than describing it as a dim7 with a 9th; first of all it's true.

[JumpingJackFlash]

here we are faced with the ambiguities of chromatic music.

Chromatic music? The passage in question is entirely diatonic.

[jancivil]

I guess you didn't look at the F natural and G natural that follow then. Your analysis?

[JumpingJackFlash]

I guess you didn't look at the F natural and G natural that follow then. Your analysis?

Not in the passage in question

[jancivil]

so you have no answer, just want to stick with gainsaying the statement. Got it.

[JumpingJackFlash]

so you have no answer, just want to stick with gainsaying the statement as if meaningful. Got it.

I know you like arguments, but I'm afraid I'm not going to bother getting in one with you this time.