When to use 7ths, 9ths and 11ths and open voicings on piano?

[jontah]

Hi!

I've been struggling ALOT with piano lately, trying to learn all those inversions and open chord voicings. I'm practicing 3-4 hours each day, if not more.

Trying to stay at atleast 3hours.

I'm wondering though, when do you know how to play a chord? I mean, how do I know I should play a 7th chord instead of a normal chord, a 9th or 11th or even just what inversion I should play on the chord? is there any thinking of this or is it just try out and just play around?

Does the 7th, 9th, 11th chords have any function musicwise? I mean for instance; the 7th chord wants to resolve to the first chord or something like that. When do you typcially play these coloring chords?

Same with 9ths, when? how do I know?

lol really fuzzy question, just something I've thought about and I'd really like to get more knowledge about it, since I'm learning it.

Appreciating all answers!

[jopy]

learning chords in the abstract is a place to start, but the answer to your question about how to use these tools will come when you learn some songs as context. you use a 9th, for example, when it sounds right in terms of the style, the voice leading, and the melody. it's not in relation to any set of rules for chords, but rather, principles of harmony. chords and harmony aren't the same thing.

[jontah]

learning chords in the abstract is a place to start, but the answer to your question about how to use these tools will come when you learn some songs as context. you use a 9th, for example, when it sounds right in terms of the style, the voice leading, and the melody. it's not in relation to any set of rules for chords, but rather, principles of harmony. chords and harmony aren't the same thing.

So.. I'm only composing my own stuff, I'm not practicing any songs at all. Is that a mistake by me you think?

Just doing exercises for these specific things.. will that leave me without clues of when to use it and where in the context?

[Dewdman42]

if it sounds good use it

[Trakstar]

Hi!

I've been struggling ALOT with piano lately, trying to learn all those inversions and open chord voicings. I'm practicing 3-4 hours each day, if not more.

Trying to stay at atleast 3hours.

I'm wondering though, when do you know how to play a chord? I mean, how do I know I should play a 7th chord instead of a normal chord, a 9th or 11th or even just what inversion I should play on the chord? is there any thinking of this or is it just try out and just play around?

Does the 7th, 9th, 11th chords have any function musicwise? I mean for instance; the 7th chord wants to resolve to the first chord or something like that. When do you typcially play these coloring chords?

Same with 9ths, when? how do I know?

lol really fuzzy question, just something I've thought about and I'd really like to get more knowledge about it, since I'm learning it.

Appreciating all answers!

By listening to the feel of the chords and the mood of the sound your trying to create!!. Also the way you play the chords dynamically will greatly affect the overall feel of the sound. There are a couple of great forums that have been done concerning this and stuff, so you might want to read them. When you play the keys dont just hit them lifelessly, you have to interact with them and express them as a language..give them motion and atmosphere. Dont expect playing an instrument like a robot to yield exciting and dramatic results. Listen to some classic music how it flows and moves along and see how it makes you "FEEL". If you find yourself listening to it without being moved in anyway then find some music that does. A similar example is like reading a book you can really get into and you find yourself unable to put it down and wanting to know what happens on the next page, it draws you into it with interest. Where as a book such as Susan Boyles biography would leave you bored to tears and wanting to throw it out of the window!!. Feelings man.. You do have them dont you??

[penguinfromdeep]

when you are making soulful, even jazzy sounding stuff

[Dewdman42]

another way of looking at things is that 9ths, 11ths, 13ths, and even 7ths, add tension to chords. So...you can increase tension by adding more tension notes. So think of creating tension and removing tension, creating tension, removing it. Think of a tension "curve" if you will, where you build towards tension and resolve away from tension. Those notes add tension.

[tapper mike]

Something either adds to a songs dimensionality or it detracts from it.

When you are playing you are also supposed to be listening.

[jopy]

So.. I'm only composing my own stuff, I'm not practicing any songs at all. Is that a mistake by me you think?

Just doing exercises for these specific things.. will that leave me without clues of when to use it and where in the context?

yes, i think you will progress much more quickly if you learn a couple of songs to see how others have fit some of these things together.

[jancivil]

"when to use _"? when there is a musical reason for it in a composition.

by themselves, they are just phenomena. there isn't any meaning to 'a chord' until 'said chord' is applied, for a reason. it's like 'when to use a word?'. when your meaning is suited by the word. 'When to use a clause'; when the sense of your sentence is made clearer by it, or when it amplifies a point.

[Melody supported by] harmony is, in popular music, presented as 'here's the chords'. But there were reasons for the choices of chords. This whole <extracted chords out of all context as if there is some knowledge about chords to gain, qua chords> crops up here a lot. There isn't anything to say about it, beyond the informational, eg., <how they're constructed off a given scale>; or regurgitation of principles:

9ths, 11ths, 13ths, and even 7ths, add tension to chords. So...you can increase tension by adding more tension notes. So think of creating tension and removing tension, creating tension, removing it. Think of a tension "curve" if you will, where you build towards tension and resolve away from tension. Those notes add tension.

Phenomenally, more or less true. They can add tension. You can increase tension by doing this.

But what is the reason you want to? What is the context? "Tension curve." Surely this is true by particulars somewhere in music. As given it is a principle abstracted out of context. The reality behind the principle will be revealed when you know some songs that do this.

there is more to it than this. If 'a seventh chord' means 'tension/needs resolution' how is it that whole John Lee Hooker or James Brown songs just stick to a seventh chord as though it's permanent homesville? Here is an area where they're copasetic with that tension. "those notes add tension". By comparison? All of the parts of a 'seventh chord' occur by partial #7 in the harmonic series, by nature. Hmmmm...

Foxy Lady. The salient chord form: Root, M3, min 7, min 10th ['#9']. More often than not called F#7#9; F# A# E A. Seems tense. Does it resolve to B? It does not. It vamps on that and a bass riff in the mode happens after the third iteration of that chord. It is the home chord. Why is that. How is it that that tension/release principle isn't true here at all. The reason for that chord? You could say, 'blues, the ambiguity of major/minor third of blues is present at once in a chord'. You could say, 'this is a sexy motherf**ker of a chord.' It is what it is, it gets the point across.

the desirability of this or that convention, such as tension release, is not evidenced in the OP. Jontah may be interested in rock music...

I'm only composing my own stuff, I'm not practicing any songs at all. Is that a mistake by me you think?

Just doing exercises for these specific things.. will that leave me without clues of when to use it and where in the context?

It is a mistake. You're lacking a clue so far. This whole idea of starting to write but you never did anybody's songs is new to me, bit of future shock.

[Dewdman42]

The 7th is debatably not a tension note, but more of a fundamental part of the chord sound. Often times the tritone resolution, of say V7 chords is very strong, much more relevant then simply tension. I almost left it out of the list.

A M7, m7 or Dom7 chord all has a very distinct chordal character to each one. On the other hand, adding 9th's 11th's 13ths to 7th chords doesn't really change the character so substantially but rather just adds tension and flavor without changing the fundamental chord function.

Another interesting point is that if you stack a chord in root position, a 7th chord has all notes a 3rd apart, within the same octave. But 9ths, 11ths and 13ths go into the next octave and in in actuality are more like 2nd, 4th and 6th, which gives a much more tension oriented sound then a 7th does. Those notes are a 2nd away from other fundamental tones of root, 3rd and 5th, therefore the tension is created.

Jazz and blues are a particular style which use a lot of 7th chords as a charactistic part of their sound. Adding tension notes to jazz and blues will not lose that quality, but will add color only.

[Dewdman42]

Foxy Lady. The salient chord form: Root, M3, min 7, min 10th ['#9']. More often than not called F#7#9; F# A# E A. Seems tense. Does it resolve to B? It does not. It vamps on that and a bass riff in the mode happens after the third iteration of that chord. It is the home chord. Why is that. How is it that that tension/release principle isn't true here at all. The reason for that chord? You could say, 'blues, the ambiguity of major/minor third of blues is present at once in a chord'. You could say, 'this is a sexy motherf**ker of a chord.' It is what it is, it gets the point across.

Tension notes are not the same as tritone resolution. Tritone resolution causes a distinct desire by the listener to hear a resolution. Tension notes on the other hand just add tension or color to existing chords. They can linger along forever or resolve or follow any tension curve you want. If you want a flat curve then great. if you want something else. fine. Its like crescendo and drecresendo. You add the color and take it away as you wish, which can form a kind of tensional rhythm. Or if you just want a certain color all the time, then go for it. Those tension notes are not the same as tritone resolution, which tends to have a strong tendency to want to resolve and tends to guide music into typical sounding progressions.

in fact, in my experience adding tension color notes can often blur the tritone tendency away so that the music can in fact be more ambigous and have less of a tendency to need to resolve in traditional ways, yet somehow the tension is felt, in a way like texture or color that feels good.

[tapper mike]

I'll add this.

It doesn't have to be a jazzy situation to play extended chords. Steely Dan is not a jazz band but they make extensive use of extensions.

[Dewdman42]

Well two things. First, Steely Dan is a heavily jazz influenced rock band. To my ears, they sound jazzy. However there are oodles of other examples out there of music which has a lot of 9, 11, 13 color tones and does not sound "jazz", but rather sounds "sophisticated" or rich.

One example is film music. If you start breaking down film music and look at what's in a lot of it, it doesn't really sound jazzy per say, but actually has a ton of those color notes. Much classical music, particularly from the romnantic era onwards, also includes those intervals. 9th chords are used in a lot in rock and metal. Even the Beatles used them from time to time.

Jazziness, IMHO, is more a factor of the presence of 7ths, and of particular chord progressions that lead to a jazzy feel.

[jancivil]

Tritone resolution causes a distinct desire by the listener to hear a resolution.

That doesn't actually make sense. 'Resolution causes a desire for itself' works like an ouroboros. But it does indicate this: there are conventions that are apparent in context of style where a tritone carries that expectation.

There is no requirement, or this or that expectation, from 'a chord' per se.

in fact, in my experience adding tension color notes can often blur the tritone tendency away so that the music can in fact be more ambigous and have less of a tendency to need to resolve in traditional ways, yet somehow the tension is felt, in a way like texture or color that feels good.

that's a good point.