I'm most probably being dumb but I'm having trouble with the concept of modes. I originally thought modes were just the intervals in which you start at within a scale such as within C major scale there is D dorian. So instead of starting in C you start on D but now that I'm learning more in depth with modes I'm becoming confused.
When I was looking around I found out the reason for modes are due to the distance of the tonic note. So I assumed that playing a D dorian scale over a C major chord progression would provide that D dorian sound. But now I'm not sure. I read from here
http://www.guitar-chords.org.uk/modes/m ... part2.html
That the chords that would support a E phrygian sound would be the 4th and 5th chords from a C major scale. I'm wondering why though? I thought playing a C major chord and playing a E phrygian melody would have the desired result because of the distance of the tonic.
But now that I'm looking into things would playing a D minor chord within a C major scale and playing a D dorian melody over it would work?
I think my main question is when playing within a mode and I'm going to use a F lydian mode would it be used for both chords and melodies within a song so the root is always F? Because I always thought modes were used just for melodies to give it a certain flavor from a common chord progression. Sorry if I just confused people but it's because I've confused myself.
Having trouble with modes..
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musicalvarietyman musicalvarietyman https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=269720
- KVRer
- 13 posts since 30 Nov, 2011
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- KVRAF
- 2118 posts since 1 Apr, 2004 from Athens, Greece
Basically yes. The mode will be established by both chords and melody. Actually, often the chords will be enough. For example a vamp consisting of Dm7 and G7 repeating over and over will clearly establish D Dorian even if there's no melody present. So the chords don't necessarily stay on the tonic but they have to emphasize the characteristic note of the mode.musicalvarietyman wrote:I think my main question is when playing within a mode and I'm going to use a F lydian mode would it be used for both chords and melodies within a song so the root is always F?
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- KVRist
- 140 posts since 20 May, 2005
The concept of modes is totally dependent on the tonality. Meaning, the sound of D Dorian, for example, is only established when D is heard as the tonic. That does not mean that you have to constantly play the note D in the bass, but you have to play it sometimes, especially at important rhythmic places in order to make D sound like the tonality. If you play a D Dorian scale with C held in the bass, that is NOT going to sound like D Dorian.
To clarify this better-- it is well known that C major scale and A natural minor scale have the exact same notes. If so, how can you tell which one you are playing?? The answer is simply whether C has been established to the ear as the "tonic" or tonality, or A.
Well, once you know about modes, you realize that it is not just C major and A minor that share the same notes, there is also D Dorian, E phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, and B Locrian. All these scales have the exact same notes. What makes them different is which note is heard as the tonality.
If you want to start learning how to hear modes, here's a nice way to start: Play a C major scale, up and down a few times. Now play. a C Dorian scale up and down. THAT is what Dorian sounds like. Doing this is MUCH better than playing C major (Ionian), then D Dorian, E Phrygian, etc. Because if you do it that way, your ear still remembers C as the tonic, most likely. Which means you won't hear D Dorian and the other modes properly. It's almost like a wine taster eating some jalapeno peppers right before he tastes a new wine. (I don't know too much about wine tasting, but I'm assuming that's not how they do it.
)
In fact, the only reason they teach the modes from the relative major scale (i.e. D Dorian and E Phrygian from the C major scale) is so one can quickly learn the notes for each mode. But unfortunately, this does not help you learn to HEAR the modes, and is often a major source of confusion. It would be much better to teach it as follows: A scale is some sort of pattern of steps that starts on a given tonic. The most famous such "patterns" are the major scale, and the three variations of minor scales. So for example, C major, and C minor, be it C melodic minor, C harmonic minor, or C natural minor. But in reality, there are many many more patterns, or scales, that exist. For starters, you have the modes of the major scale. So now you can add to the list, C Dorian, C Phrygian, C Lydian, C Mixolydian, and C Locrian. (I've omitted Ionian and Aeolian since the notes are identical to the major and natural minor scales.).
Each scale is like a world of its own. Each has its own "color". Music that uses only major and minor scales restricts itself to those colors. Flamenco music is often based on Phrygian mode, that's why when you hear it you are instantly transported to Spain or Mexico. Etc. And I should mention, the major, minor, and modes are just the most common scales. There are much more. You have all the modes based on melodic minor scale, the modes of harmonic minor, modes of harmonic major, and more. There are also symmetric scales, like the whole tone scale, etc.
And hopefully the following is obvious, but I figured I'd mention it anyway. Any mode, like Dorian, for example, can be started from any note. Just like there are twelve distinct major scales, C, Db/C#, D, Eb, etc., there are twelve distinct Dorian scales as well, C dorian, C# dorian, D dorian, etc. And so too for any of the other scales.
To clarify this better-- it is well known that C major scale and A natural minor scale have the exact same notes. If so, how can you tell which one you are playing?? The answer is simply whether C has been established to the ear as the "tonic" or tonality, or A.
Well, once you know about modes, you realize that it is not just C major and A minor that share the same notes, there is also D Dorian, E phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, and B Locrian. All these scales have the exact same notes. What makes them different is which note is heard as the tonality.
If you want to start learning how to hear modes, here's a nice way to start: Play a C major scale, up and down a few times. Now play. a C Dorian scale up and down. THAT is what Dorian sounds like. Doing this is MUCH better than playing C major (Ionian), then D Dorian, E Phrygian, etc. Because if you do it that way, your ear still remembers C as the tonic, most likely. Which means you won't hear D Dorian and the other modes properly. It's almost like a wine taster eating some jalapeno peppers right before he tastes a new wine. (I don't know too much about wine tasting, but I'm assuming that's not how they do it.
)In fact, the only reason they teach the modes from the relative major scale (i.e. D Dorian and E Phrygian from the C major scale) is so one can quickly learn the notes for each mode. But unfortunately, this does not help you learn to HEAR the modes, and is often a major source of confusion. It would be much better to teach it as follows: A scale is some sort of pattern of steps that starts on a given tonic. The most famous such "patterns" are the major scale, and the three variations of minor scales. So for example, C major, and C minor, be it C melodic minor, C harmonic minor, or C natural minor. But in reality, there are many many more patterns, or scales, that exist. For starters, you have the modes of the major scale. So now you can add to the list, C Dorian, C Phrygian, C Lydian, C Mixolydian, and C Locrian. (I've omitted Ionian and Aeolian since the notes are identical to the major and natural minor scales.).
Each scale is like a world of its own. Each has its own "color". Music that uses only major and minor scales restricts itself to those colors. Flamenco music is often based on Phrygian mode, that's why when you hear it you are instantly transported to Spain or Mexico. Etc. And I should mention, the major, minor, and modes are just the most common scales. There are much more. You have all the modes based on melodic minor scale, the modes of harmonic minor, modes of harmonic major, and more. There are also symmetric scales, like the whole tone scale, etc.
And hopefully the following is obvious, but I figured I'd mention it anyway. Any mode, like Dorian, for example, can be started from any note. Just like there are twelve distinct major scales, C, Db/C#, D, Eb, etc., there are twelve distinct Dorian scales as well, C dorian, C# dorian, D dorian, etc. And so too for any of the other scales.
Sam
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musicalvarietyman musicalvarietyman https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=269720
- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 13 posts since 30 Nov, 2011
Thanks you two you really helped cleared up my confusion, I've been keeping away from modes but I think I can start tackling them now thanks.
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- KVRist
- 140 posts since 20 May, 2005
Sure thing.
Btw I dunno if I'd agree that a vamp of Dmi7 and G7 will always establish D Dorian, it may depend on the voicings and the melody-- it could also sound like II-V in C major being repeated over and over without ever resolving to C. Tonality is a funny thing, it can be subjective-- it's not an exact science. Certainly a good way to establish a specific tonality with a melody is to approach the tonic from its dominant note, or SO of the scale, in solfege. It's sometmes possible for two people to hear the same music and to disagree about what the tonality is, or what the composer's intent was. ( although usually it's pretty clear-cut).
Also wanted to point out, modes don't necessarily need to have "chords" like in functional harmony. The harmony is the scale, along with the establishment of the tonic. The only movement that typically takes place is generally moving back and forth from voicings that contain the mode's unstable tone, and then resolving to voicings that do not contain that tone. For instance, that's why F and G back and forth over a D bass works to establish Dorian-- first of all, all the tones are part of the dorian scale. And the G triad contains the note B, which is Dorian mode's "color" tone or most identifiable tone. It is the most unstable tone of the scale. When you move to the F triad, this resolves it, because the F does not contain B in it. So basically any such movement will work nicely. (Including Dmi7 to G7, same thing-- G7 has B in it, Dmi7 does not). You can keep moving back and forth, stable, unstable, for as long as your heart desires.
It is possible also to build three and four part chords from each degree of a mode, just like we do in functional harmony in major or minor. However, not every chord will work well in a modal setting, especially dominant and diminished chords which often make it sound like the music wants to resolve like in regular major/minor harmony. But keep in mind--even if you do switch "chords", the main thing about mode is to think scale, not chords. A progression in D Dorian is basically all D dorian.
Btw I dunno if I'd agree that a vamp of Dmi7 and G7 will always establish D Dorian, it may depend on the voicings and the melody-- it could also sound like II-V in C major being repeated over and over without ever resolving to C. Tonality is a funny thing, it can be subjective-- it's not an exact science. Certainly a good way to establish a specific tonality with a melody is to approach the tonic from its dominant note, or SO of the scale, in solfege. It's sometmes possible for two people to hear the same music and to disagree about what the tonality is, or what the composer's intent was. ( although usually it's pretty clear-cut).
Also wanted to point out, modes don't necessarily need to have "chords" like in functional harmony. The harmony is the scale, along with the establishment of the tonic. The only movement that typically takes place is generally moving back and forth from voicings that contain the mode's unstable tone, and then resolving to voicings that do not contain that tone. For instance, that's why F and G back and forth over a D bass works to establish Dorian-- first of all, all the tones are part of the dorian scale. And the G triad contains the note B, which is Dorian mode's "color" tone or most identifiable tone. It is the most unstable tone of the scale. When you move to the F triad, this resolves it, because the F does not contain B in it. So basically any such movement will work nicely. (Including Dmi7 to G7, same thing-- G7 has B in it, Dmi7 does not). You can keep moving back and forth, stable, unstable, for as long as your heart desires.
It is possible also to build three and four part chords from each degree of a mode, just like we do in functional harmony in major or minor. However, not every chord will work well in a modal setting, especially dominant and diminished chords which often make it sound like the music wants to resolve like in regular major/minor harmony. But keep in mind--even if you do switch "chords", the main thing about mode is to think scale, not chords. A progression in D Dorian is basically all D dorian.
Sam
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- KVRAF
- 2217 posts since 15 Jul, 2003
that is one of the clearest explanations of modes I've ever come across
The idea of staying with one tonic and playingthe differnt modes of that tinic, rather than moving up in that one scale is a brilliant suggestion to get the sound of the mode established in the ear.
The ususal way of working up through a c scale has too many distractions -- not the least of which is moving up in pitch on every mode
The idea of staying with one tonic and playingthe differnt modes of that tinic, rather than moving up in that one scale is a brilliant suggestion to get the sound of the mode established in the ear.
The ususal way of working up through a c scale has too many distractions -- not the least of which is moving up in pitch on every mode
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- KVRist
- 140 posts since 20 May, 2005
Thanks .
It's interesting that most books on harmony spend very little time discussing how to hear harmony. They kind of assume either that it will take care of itself, or that you can do it already. Or that it's not something that can be taught. But clearly these are not great assumptions. So a chapter or discussion on modes often fails completely to talk about what modes actually sound like. They just focus on how to figure out/learn what notes are in each mode. It's much more important to learn the SOUND of each scale degree of a mode. Knowing which actual note is associated with every scale degree (for instance, that C# is the sixth degree in an E Dorian scale) in every key is a worthy venture, but if you recognize the sound you can find the right notes pretty quickly, even if you're not so quick yet with memorizing all the scales.
Another good exercise would be to hold the root of the mode, down low on the piano (second octave of the piano, around), and play one of the scale degrees of the mode you're working on over and over. And sing the low root note, to get that tonality established in your head. Then try singing the scale degree, and then back to the root. Hopefully this kind of thing will help establish a strong sense of tonality, and soon you'll start to actually feel the sense of each scale degree, so that you can immediately identify it. Also, a great extension of this would be to try playing the low root note and singing the scale degree, without striking it on the piano first. Then using the piano to check yourself. Keep playing that root. (It might help to use the sostenuto pedal for this kind of exercise, play the root, press the pedal, and then play the other notes.)
.It's interesting that most books on harmony spend very little time discussing how to hear harmony. They kind of assume either that it will take care of itself, or that you can do it already. Or that it's not something that can be taught. But clearly these are not great assumptions. So a chapter or discussion on modes often fails completely to talk about what modes actually sound like. They just focus on how to figure out/learn what notes are in each mode. It's much more important to learn the SOUND of each scale degree of a mode. Knowing which actual note is associated with every scale degree (for instance, that C# is the sixth degree in an E Dorian scale) in every key is a worthy venture, but if you recognize the sound you can find the right notes pretty quickly, even if you're not so quick yet with memorizing all the scales.
Another good exercise would be to hold the root of the mode, down low on the piano (second octave of the piano, around), and play one of the scale degrees of the mode you're working on over and over. And sing the low root note, to get that tonality established in your head. Then try singing the scale degree, and then back to the root. Hopefully this kind of thing will help establish a strong sense of tonality, and soon you'll start to actually feel the sense of each scale degree, so that you can immediately identify it. Also, a great extension of this would be to try playing the low root note and singing the scale degree, without striking it on the piano first. Then using the piano to check yourself. Keep playing that root. (It might help to use the sostenuto pedal for this kind of exercise, play the root, press the pedal, and then play the other notes.)
Sam
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
the way modes are typically framed, in many if not most books and materials, carries the implication that the major scale, as if the ionian mode, is the source for the others. This is what gives rise to this confusion. /edit: for instance 'D dorian within the C major scale'./ "Ionian is the seventh mode of Dorian" is as true as "Dorian is the second mode of Ionian". So what Sammy has is really essential, investigate all the modes off a single tonic. where modal practice is prevalent, you typically have one center of gravity tonally in the first place.
Last edited by jancivil on Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
When Zappa did his typical Inca Roads solos out of the 'two chord' vamp (a tone apart, eg., C-D), you can say when he's on C he is doing Lydian, on D with the Mixolydian; and this isn't so incorrect, on the C that F# feels/sounds has the character of Lydian; but it seems like it's a D center in the overall; AND the Whole D-C-D move is the chief identifier of 'character of Mixolydian', which isn't so true of C Lydian. As per the word 'dominant', in the modal music I most know from, it's particular to the raga. C might be the dominant per the tonic D in Inca Roads vamp.sammy24 wrote:... to establish a specific tonality with a melody / to approach the tonic from its dominant note...It's sometimes possible for two people to hear the same music and to disagree about what the tonality is, or what the composer's intent was...
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- KVRist
- 140 posts since 20 May, 2005
I know what you mean; like the second degree in Phrygian resolving to the root is like the "dominant" for that mode, sort of. I meant, though, that one of the things that helps establish tonality, that is sort of universal, is melodic movement down a fifth, especially when it resolves down at a strong rhythmic point. Which is why modes like Locrian are harder to convincingly establish the tonality, since there is no Perfect fifth available. But you're right, you can establish it in other ways as well.
Sam
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
yes, I take your meaning but I wanted to say something to emphasize the character issue of modal playing. -------- Locrian is very unstable; it is kind of a westerner approach to modes; 'we do it because it's there'... So, here we might look towards the fourths: the b5 accords with the b2, as 4 with 1. Cf., Raga 'theory' relies heavily on the 'perfect' relationship of fourths and fifths, and the terms subdominant and dominant have equivalents. for instance, the F# to E in C Lydian can be resembled by B - A; so the E can be dominant, the A subdominant if that is what suits the formation of the line.... so we see that fourth or fifth at the crux of the structure of melody at another level. and of course intonation itself owes to replicating the perfect fifth; probably the most central phenomenon in earth music...