hi,
im a scoring student from israel (first year).
i would like to ask a simple question... im searching the answer for a whole lot of time.
i would like to know if there's a guide for the tonal functions (not harmonic ones) of the diatonic scale. as in - tones and their solutions.
something like this (i know it's in hebrew, but take a look to know what im talking about):
http://ocw.openu.ac.il/opus/static/bina ... ajor_0.gif
it says - "hierarchy of tones in the major scale".
the names of the tones are - tonic, sub dominant, dominant, leading tone. etc..
the answer would help me alot to understand voice leading...
thank you!
diatonic functionality
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JumpingJackFlash JumpingJackFlash https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=44005
- KVRian
- 1227 posts since 10 Oct, 2004
I'm not sure I understood you exactly, but if you mean what I think you mean, then it is dependant on context.
A good example is the rule that every music student learns fairly early on; "leading notes rise to the tonic". So, in a scale of C major, the B wants to rise to the C.
That's a good "rule" for beginners, but it doesn't always work like that. Sometimes it makes more sense for the leading note to do something else, and it is is not "wrong" to do so.
The other arrows in your picture are also dependant on context. Only in certain situations does the subdomiant fall to the mediant for example; in most cases there is absolutely nothing wrong with it moving to any other note.
So, rather than concentrate on individual notes, it is generally better to be aware of general concepts. Avoiding augmented intervals is a good rule of thumb for example (but it too is not an absolute).
My post on Melody Construction and Voice Leading / Part Writing might be helpful.
A good example is the rule that every music student learns fairly early on; "leading notes rise to the tonic". So, in a scale of C major, the B wants to rise to the C.
That's a good "rule" for beginners, but it doesn't always work like that. Sometimes it makes more sense for the leading note to do something else, and it is is not "wrong" to do so.
The other arrows in your picture are also dependant on context. Only in certain situations does the subdomiant fall to the mediant for example; in most cases there is absolutely nothing wrong with it moving to any other note.
So, rather than concentrate on individual notes, it is generally better to be aware of general concepts. Avoiding augmented intervals is a good rule of thumb for example (but it too is not an absolute).
My post on Melody Construction and Voice Leading / Part Writing might be helpful.
Unfamiliar words can be looked up in my Glossary of musical terms.
Also check out my Introduction to Music Theory.
Also check out my Introduction to Music Theory.
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 11 posts since 28 May, 2013
thank you for your quick answer.
im not that new to music theory
i know counterpoint quite well. but the question reaches abit deeper.
as you posted in your introductions:
"Each note of the scale has a different technical name. In both major and minor scales:
1st of the scale = Tonic
2nd of the scale = Supertonic
3rd of the scale = Mediant
4th of the scale = Subdominant
5th of the scale = Dominant
6th of the scale = Submediant
7th of the scale = Leading Note"
on a macro view (harmony, triads) the function of the chord is determined by the quality of the motion of the voices inside(contrary, oblique etc..) thus making 'storng' or 'weak' progressions.
what i meant was on micro level - the pitches themselves have qualities of their own. like you said about the leading tone (B goes to C).
what i want to find out are the other qualities/functions - supertonic, mediant and so on... the pic i added in the opening post refers to the 'tip' of the iceberg of these hierarchical relationships between the notes, in a diatonic scale.
sorry for digging..
im not that new to music theory
i know counterpoint quite well. but the question reaches abit deeper.
as you posted in your introductions:
"Each note of the scale has a different technical name. In both major and minor scales:
1st of the scale = Tonic
2nd of the scale = Supertonic
3rd of the scale = Mediant
4th of the scale = Subdominant
5th of the scale = Dominant
6th of the scale = Submediant
7th of the scale = Leading Note"
on a macro view (harmony, triads) the function of the chord is determined by the quality of the motion of the voices inside(contrary, oblique etc..) thus making 'storng' or 'weak' progressions.
what i meant was on micro level - the pitches themselves have qualities of their own. like you said about the leading tone (B goes to C).
what i want to find out are the other qualities/functions - supertonic, mediant and so on... the pic i added in the opening post refers to the 'tip' of the iceberg of these hierarchical relationships between the notes, in a diatonic scale.
sorry for digging..
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JumpingJackFlash JumpingJackFlash https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=44005
- KVRian
- 1227 posts since 10 Oct, 2004
Notes themselves don't have functions. They only acquire a function in the context of a chord (which in turn only acquires a function in the context of a key).boobai wrote:what i want to find out are the other qualities/functions - supertonic, mediant and so on... the pic i added in the opening post refers to the 'tip' of the iceberg of these hierarchical relationships between the notes, in a diatonic scale.
Unfamiliar words can be looked up in my Glossary of musical terms.
Also check out my Introduction to Music Theory.
Also check out my Introduction to Music Theory.
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 11 posts since 28 May, 2013
ill try to be more specific...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatonic_function
"In this context, role means the degree of tension produced by moving toward a note, chord or scale other than the tonic, and how this musical tension would be eased (resolved) towards the stability of returning to the tonic chord, note, or scale (namely, function)."
im really interested in the degree of tension between notes themselves.
it's a bit tricky, i found a few wiki quotes about this, but no deeper explanation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatonic_function
"In this context, role means the degree of tension produced by moving toward a note, chord or scale other than the tonic, and how this musical tension would be eased (resolved) towards the stability of returning to the tonic chord, note, or scale (namely, function)."
im really interested in the degree of tension between notes themselves.
it's a bit tricky, i found a few wiki quotes about this, but no deeper explanation.
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 11 posts since 28 May, 2013
finally found something by mere accident!
http://www2.siba.fi/muste1/index.php?id=63&la=en
http://www2.siba.fi/muste1/index.php?id=63&la=en
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JumpingJackFlash JumpingJackFlash https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=44005
- KVRian
- 1227 posts since 10 Oct, 2004
That seems to be talking about Harmonic Function, i.e. Functional Harmony.boobai wrote:ill try to be more specific...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatonic_function
"In this context, role means the degree of tension produced by moving toward a note, chord or scale other than the tonic, and how this musical tension would be eased (resolved) towards the stability of returning to the tonic chord, note, or scale (namely, function)."
im really interested in the degree of tension between notes themselves.
it's a bit tricky, i found a few wiki quotes about this, but no deeper explanation.
The function comes from the harmony, not the individual notes.
Let's take the notes F-G in C major, and assume each note is going to be harmonised by a different chord.
Harmonising that with IV-I will produce a very different effect that harmonising it with ii-V. - It is the chords that are the important bit, not the notes themselves.
Unfamiliar words can be looked up in my Glossary of musical terms.
Also check out my Introduction to Music Theory.
Also check out my Introduction to Music Theory.
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JumpingJackFlash JumpingJackFlash https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=44005
- KVRian
- 1227 posts since 10 Oct, 2004
Well, following that advice would result in very boring parts, and will almost certainly get you into trouble further down the road with parallel octaves and stuff like that.boobai wrote:check out the other link
But if it helps you, then by all means use it.
Just remember; there are many exceptions!
In a tonic major seventh for example, the leading note has a much stronger tendency to resolve downwards than upwards.
And the subdominant resolving upwards to the dominant (rather than downwards to the mediant) is also ubiquitous in functional harmony (as in the progressions IV-V or iib-V for example).
Unfamiliar words can be looked up in my Glossary of musical terms.
Also check out my Introduction to Music Theory.
Also check out my Introduction to Music Theory.
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 11 posts since 28 May, 2013
http://www.synapticstudios.com/2009/the ... endencies/
edit: some kind of bug here, there shouldnt be any spaces in the link, when you copy it, delete the spaces.
here's another explanation.
i think it's not meant as a law (like parallel fifths or octaves and forbiden movements in voice leading) but more as a melodical tendency of a note.
im still in the search for a better explanation of the minor tonal tendencies (would be glad if someone shares some info if he finds something).
i'll check the theory of your last post tomorrow since i slept only 3 hours searching the web for the answers (even signed up here for this )
thanks alot again!
edit: some kind of bug here, there shouldnt be any spaces in the link, when you copy it, delete the spaces.
here's another explanation.
i think it's not meant as a law (like parallel fifths or octaves and forbiden movements in voice leading) but more as a melodical tendency of a note.
im still in the search for a better explanation of the minor tonal tendencies (would be glad if someone shares some info if he finds something).
i'll check the theory of your last post tomorrow since i slept only 3 hours searching the web for the answers (even signed up here for this
)thanks alot again!
Last edited by boobai on Tue May 28, 2013 9:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 11 posts since 28 May, 2013
sorry, couldnt help it 
Imaj7 is in fact (by classical terms, im not familiar with jazz theory
) is a secondary dominant - V7/IV. IV is F... so the note B in the key of F is the fourth note. its tendency is to go down to the 3rd of the scale - A ,according to the melodic tendencies.
im sorry again for sounding cocky. it wasnt my intention at all... just excited cause i understood it.
Imaj7 is in fact (by classical terms, im not familiar with jazz theory
) is a secondary dominant - V7/IV. IV is F... so the note B in the key of F is the fourth note. its tendency is to go down to the 3rd of the scale - A ,according to the melodic tendencies.im sorry again for sounding cocky. it wasnt my intention at all... just excited cause i understood it.
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JumpingJackFlash JumpingJackFlash https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=44005
- KVRian
- 1227 posts since 10 Oct, 2004
No it's not.boobai wrote:Imaj7 is in fact (by classical terms, im not familiar with jazz theory
The tonic major seventh in C major is C-E-G-B.
This chord is not found within F major (which would require a Bb).
V7 is a "dominant seventh", not a "major seventh".
Unfamiliar words can be looked up in my Glossary of musical terms.
Also check out my Introduction to Music Theory.
Also check out my Introduction to Music Theory.
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
this is not meaningful. until there is music, context in some musical idea, there is no tension between notes 'themselves', between notes per se. the weight of the time/rhythm, and/or the fabric of harmony will determine tension.boobai wrote:im really interested in the degree of tension between notes themselves.
even the picture has decided context. if you limit this to major, diatonic, there are a couple of general principles extrapolated that may or may not be valid. 5 to 1, 7 to 1. So what? The notions 'diatonic' [a context] and 'tension between notes' have been confounded. "tonal functions (not harmonic ones) of the diatonic scale". What?
If there is a tension of B that calls for C, there is an idea there (C has weight, for some reason musically). It isn't that B and C have some tense relationship per se.
your picture directs 2 to 1 but no arrow to 3; as if that means something. It doesn't. What do you do with that? Music is ideas, the idea of the D could be that it just goes to E, as say the third of the I chord. There is no such relationship, "more tension" per se there. that is a half-baked idea following some notion. It's an oversimplification of everything.
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- KVRist
- 140 posts since 20 May, 2005
I would suggest to the OP to check out Chapter 1 of Dick Grove's See It/Hear it Musicianship course (dickgrove.com). It deals with exactly what you are talking about. As far as I know, you can purchase each chapter separately if you want.
I am in no way affiliated with them, but I have studied with their program and can highly recommend it.
Feel free to PM me with any questions you might have.
I am in no way affiliated with them, but I have studied with their program and can highly recommend it.
Feel free to PM me with any questions you might have.
Sam