A couple of questions about a DAW dedicated PC

[Spiritos]

First of all let me apologise as I know there are quite a few threads already covering this topic but I'm trying to puzzle together some pieces so I hope there are still some people willing to share some advice.

I'm in need of a new PC and I'm going to make it a dedicated Windows DAW machine. Currently I'm just gathering some info as I'm trying to decide whether I'm going to build it myself or buy a (customised) retail version.

In this forum I found numerous links to retailers specialising in building music PC's. As I am a simple bedroom producer (with the passion to take it to the next level) I'm wondering if these retailers will be a valid option.

A few of the things I noticed on these sites is that the components are pretty steap in price compared to generic retail. Also the components to choose from are quite limited and unfortunately most of them require you to buy an OS (which I already have).

First question is: I know all components are carefully alligned together and the OS is tweaked for music production but as a bedroom producer will it outweigh the extra costs that come along with it?

Secondly: Are there any dutch members here in the know of such dutch retailers as all I could find are from the UK or US?

Thirdly: As I still have an outdated but decent GPU (ATI 4850 HD) lying around I'd rather not buy yet another. I know it's about silent fans but the GPU's these sites offer seem way out of proportion. I figure there's hardly any need for a top GPU on a DAW-PC. I know some plugins tend to utilise the GPU but I think my old GPU would suffice or am I wrong here?

Four: I currently own a Edirol UA-25 Audio Interface (24/96). As it is still USB 1.1 I'm wondering if I need to upgrade this as well. I only use it to plug in a guitar and mic and for the rest I play softsynths with USB MIDI-controllers. At this point I have about 24 ms latency which is too much but I guess a new PC will surely reduce this or am I also wrong here?

My budget is around 1000-1500 euros (including possible new interface and a second hand screen-monitor) and I'm aiming at an i7 Ivy Bridge with 16 GB RAM and a 180/240 GB SSD with one or two additional 1 TB sample/audio drives.

For this amount I know I can build one myself but I'm unsure if I can get it up to par with the tweaking a music-retailer can deliver as I've been out of the DYI thing too long to have a clear overview of all the new correlations between components for finer adjustments.

Last question about SSD's. Do you still have to keep 20-25% free space for optimal performance as it is with regular HDD's?

[DevonB]

A few of the things I noticed on these sites is that the components are pretty steap in price compared to generic retail. Also the components to choose from are quite limited and unfortunately most of them require you to buy an OS (which I already have).

Yup, most of the US DAW builders were crazy high prices, but not all. The only reasonably priced one I've done comparisons on over the years was ADK. They were usually ~$350 higher give or take $50, which is quite reasonably considering the are building the PC for you with parts that will work, provide a warranty for the PC in whole, provided relevant tech support to your setup as they understand what a DAW is and will help you with problems that would be related to DAW systems unlike HP, Dell, etc. For anyone running a business on their DAW, that's money well spent as an insurance policy alone. Most of the others were like ~$600-$1000 more for the same parts I could buy at NewEgg, and I didn't really see the value in that. If anyone can point me at another reasonably priced DAW builder in the US, I'd be happy to take a look and compare.

First question is: I know all components are carefully alligned together and the OS is tweaked for music production but as a bedroom producer will it outweigh the extra costs that come along with it?

What's your time worth to you? If you're not already a DIY guy, it's going to take quite a few hours to get everything done. I'd say be prepared to spend at least a good 15-20+ hours doing research, ordering parts, getting it built, tweaking the OS and BIOS, dealing with any parts that don't work, etc. Sure, you could do it quick. Sure, you could get lucky. Experience pays in this space though. I just helped my best friend build a new Sandy Bridge E system, and saved him time and money from my advice alone. Unless you know what to look for and avoid, you'll be spending even more time replacing things you didn't consider until you got it (like CPU coolers that are either too large for the case or capacitor placement on motherboards that don't fit with that particular cooler, or DIMM modules that are too tall that run into the cooler, or PCI cards that don't fit because of the southbridge heat sinks, and and and...) This is stuff you need to know and look for up front before you waste money sending stuff back and restocking fees.

Thirdly: As I still have an outdated but decent GPU (ATI 4850 HD) lying around I'd rather not buy yet another. I know it's about silent fans but the GPU's these sites offer seem way out of proportion. I figure there's hardly any need for a top GPU on a DAW-PC. I know some plugins tend to utilise the GPU but I think my old GPU would suffice or am I wrong here?

Most of the fanless GPU boards are like $30-$40 that work fine for a DAW. Getting a new one will mean you'll have drivers that will contiue to be updated for awhile.

Four: I currently own a Edirol UA-25 Audio Interface (24/96). As it is still USB 1.1 I'm wondering if I need to upgrade this as well. I only use it to plug in a guitar and mic and for the rest I play softsynths with USB MIDI-controllers. At this point I have about 24 ms latency which is too much but I guess a new PC will surely reduce this or am I also wrong here?

I reviewed the UA-25 years ago. I know for a fact I wasn't getting latency that high as my only usable setting. I'd have to dig out my article from years ago to see what it was doing, because I don't remember off the top of my head. I believe I was easily getting 6ms though. So I'd say it's your setup. So yes, the new machine will help that. Do you need more? USB 1.1 is bandwidth limited. Considering you don't need more bandwidth because of the limited channels it has, I wouldn't worry about replacing it. It was designed to do what it has and USB 2 or 3 isn't going to make it work 'better'.

My budget is around 1000-1500 euros (including possible new interface and a second hand screen-monitor) and I'm aiming at an i7 Ivy Bridge with 16 GB RAM and a 180/240 GB SSD with one or two additional 1 TB sample/audio drives.

Prices are pretty close between 1 and 2TB drives. Look carefully before making a decision.

For this amount I know I can build one myself but I'm unsure if I can get it up to par with the tweaking a music-retailer can deliver as I've been out of the DYI thing too long to have a clear overview of all the new correlations between components for finer adjustments.

Again, what's more important, your time or your money? If you have the time, go for it. If you have the money, go for it. Just make sure they are reputable.

Last question about SSD's. Do you still have to keep 20-25% free space for optimal performance as it is with regular HDD's?

20%-25% is extreme. You do want to be able to write and read files contiguously in the case of platter disks, and you need free space on SSD's when you want do to GC (Garbage Collection) and TRIM commands to prepare the disks for future writes. Once you run out of space for either media, these processes become more difficult and performance will crater. Keep in mind percentages on things that have a dramatic swing of what you're comparing are not fair. 200GB vs 2TB, 10% is 20GB vs. 200GB.

Devon

[Spiritos]

Hi Devon,

Thanks for your response.

I did find ADK as well. I already sent them a message inquiring about the shipment costs to the Netherlands.

All the things you mentioned about fitting parts and such are so true which is why I'm considering having one build. I did put together my current PC but that was more than 5 years ago and since then I haven't been following up on all developments so I'm way behind although I would have the spare time now..

I realised as I am looking at the new i7 4770K Haswell I wouldn't need a GPU anyway as it already has one onboard and the UA-25 issues might very well be the case of a messed up OS (I didn't get a chanche to look any further into my earlier thread about it disappearing in my DAW).

So just in case.. If I would be able to match all the right components based on research and I would decide to build one myself or have it assembled by a generic retailer can you give any indication about the benefits performance wise compared to a dedicated DAW-builder?

Prior to that I will most likely seek some more advice in a new thread or different fora to make sure I don't overlook anything but this will be focussed on the hardware.

I'm planning to do some overclocking and I have some understanding about optimizing windows but I'm sure it won't match the level of expertise as for eg. ADK has so again, aside from insurance policy and all how would you rate the benefits between a generic and specialized builder?

[whyterabbyt]

PM KVR user Kaine about shipping to Amsterdam. He works for Scan in the UK; they have a division that builds dedicated audio PCs and he knows his stuff. Its gotta be cheaper from here to Amsterdam than from the US.

[DevonB]

PM KVR user Kaine about shipping to Amsterdam. He works for Scan in the UK; they have a division that builds dedicated audio PCs and he knows his stuff. Its gotta be cheaper from here to Amsterdam than from the US.

Agree about Kaine and Scan, however, if he ever had to send the PC back for repair, now we're getting really expensive. Not to mention, international shipments I've done seem to look like they've been through a warzone to get to me compared to most (but not all) domestic shipments. That would be my biggest points of hesitation about buying out of country for something so big and heavy is shipping fees and damages. But otherwise, I've talked to Pete many many times, and wouldn't hesitate to recommend them or ADK if you're state-side.

Devon

[Kaine]

Thanks Whyterabbyt.

Yes, we have shipped out to Holland a few times, so it's certainly viable althrough international shipping can be a bit steep regardless once you take into consideration the insurance liability on the system, but if you'd like a quote fire me through your address details and I'll ask somone on sales to quote you regarding all that.

To answer some of the original points specfically in the context of who we are and what we do, I'm not going to answer the recommendation questions as that would be rather biased!

A few of the things I noticed on these sites is that the components are pretty steap in price compared to generic retail. Also the components to choose from are quite limited and unfortunately most of them require you to buy an OS (which I already have).

We're happy to swap in anything you want pretty much. It'll get tested during the build phase so most bits shouldn't be an issue I suspect, but we'd have to discuss that before quoting to ensure we avoid any known problems.

OS wise we can test using another matching copy of your OS and then you can just put your own key in upon arrival.

Thirdly: As I still have an outdated but decent GPU (ATI 4850 HD) lying around I'd rather not buy yet another. I know it's about silent fans but the GPU's these sites offer seem way out of proportion. I figure there's hardly any need for a top GPU on a DAW-PC. I know some plugins tend to utilise the GPU but I think my old GPU would suffice or am I wrong here?

Should be fine just for 2d desktop display purposes. Depending on your final spec you might end up with a perfectly suitable onboard solution these days anyway, so no noisy fan would be requred.

Four: I currently own a Edirol UA-25 Audio Interface (24/96). As it is still USB 1.1 I'm wondering if I need to upgrade this as well. I only use it to plug in a guitar and mic and for the rest I play softsynths with USB MIDI-controllers. At this point I have about 24 ms latency which is too much but I guess a new PC will surely reduce this or am I also wrong here?

Latency is a combination of Drivers & Hardware. Yes it may/should improve on a better system but if the drivers for the interface are dog rough then your fighting a losing battle. I'd probably suggest putting the system together and if it works fine then result and you've saved some money... otherwise you may need to look at something else down the line.

Last question about SSD's. Do you still have to keep 20-25% free space for optimal performance as it is with regular HDD's?

AFAIK You shouldn't have to leave any space on a SSD. You only really have to do that on a mechanical for maintenance reasons (defragging) or because the end of the drive is slow and neither of those apply to SSD's.

However I'm going to bow to whatever Devon advises up top as his storage experience is far, far more in depth than my own. I can see the point about wanting to keep enough storage in there to ensure no problem writing data but given that surely we'd be talking more like 3% - 5% than the older requirements of 10% - 20%?

*edit*

however, if he ever had to send the PC back for repair, now we're getting really expensive.

Yep, very true which is why I didn't jump into this thread initally. If your looking to buy international because you have no choice then this is going to be the result regardless, so understandably it may be wise to suggest that you try and stay as close to home as possible if you can.

Not to mention, international shipments I've done seem to look like they've been through a warzone to get to me compared to most (but not all) domestic shipments.

Yes indeed, thus explaining my opening comments on International liability on shipping!

It's can be bad enough shipping them across the country some days no matter what currior you use, so international introduces all sorts of extra fun to deal with, it's not impossible but logistically you should be aware of all this prior to heading down that route.

[DevonB]

So just in case.. If I would be able to match all the right components based on research and I would decide to build one myself or have it assembled by a generic retailer can you give any indication about the benefits performance wise compared to a dedicated DAW-builder?

Support for starters. A DAW builder is going to know what ASIO latency is and can help you with DAW related issues. A generic one is going to ask you "does it power on and get into an OS?" Ok, they're done. A generic one is not going to know if the motherboard causes DPC spikes or not, nor will they likely care. A dedicated DAW one, I HOPE would care. Even some dedicated DAW builders I've reviewed before did NOT have a good quality build, and couldn't get projects past 50% CPU load, so not all are perfect either. No worries, as that company that shall remain nameless is no longer in existence. You have to do your research, that's for sure no matter which way you go.

I'm planning to do some overclocking and I have some understanding about optimizing windows but I'm sure it won't match the level of expertise as for eg. ADK has so again, aside from insurance policy and all how would you rate the benefits between a generic and specialized builder?

I did above. Think about this - How many people do you know know computers REALLY well, and how many of those could specifically help you with your UA-25 issue? I work in IT and have for nearly two decades. I can think of maybe.... 1-2 people who might be able to help me with DAW related issues at my current job. Does that answer the question? If you're very patient, you can get forum help, maybe, and spend hours fixing your problems trying things out... or you can make a phone call and get direct support on your problems. Which is more valuable? You just said you're not a DIY guy; I am a DIY guy and I've sweated for 3 days trying to get a new DAW build done until I got help from someone else who knew DAWs much better than I do. Food for thought.

Devon

[Spiritos]

Really thanks for all the advice guys.

On another belgium forum I got some recommendations for a few dutch sellers. For some reason however there's no real big market here in the Netherlands and thus options are limited and also very expensive (but probably cheaper regarding shipping fees).

So I'm currently looking at seperate components to either build one myself or by a generic retailer based on research.

@Devon, I also work in IT (though more on the 'business-side) and the last 2 PC's I build were optimised for gaming which I reckon is a different ballgame. Added it's been 6 years I know I'm behind and rusty so I'll need some help of friends. However, no one I know is into DAW's - gaming only so you have a valid point.

So basic question that remains is: I'm not a professional studio guy. I don't own a studio. I simply want a high-end system that will last me a couple of years for working with VST's, large sample libraries and guitar and mic through my audio interface.

I know I can choose the right parts and have it assembled (with help) but do you or Kaine can give any indication on the benefits performance wise?

I know a lot of people work on standard off the shelf systems and maybe for me as a bedroom producer that would suffice right? I mean there's 'super-optimised' and then there's 'enough'.

So I know I'm kinda dragging on here but let's assume I can put together a silent system with a good airflow and have the hardware-side covered, will the
specific tweaks BIOS/OS-wise be noticable in terms of performance or even necessary for my ends?

[DevonB]

Last question about SSD's. Do you still have to keep 20-25% free space for optimal performance as it is with regular HDD's?

AFAIK You shouldn't have to leave any space on a SSD. You only really have to do that on a mechanical for maintenance reasons (defragging) or because the end of the drive is slow and neither of those apply to SSD's.

However I'm going to bow to whatever Devon advises up top as his storage experience is far, far more in depth than my own. I can see the point about wanting to keep enough storage in there to ensure no problem writing data but given that surely we'd be talking more like 3% - 5% than the older requirements of 10% - 20%?

I'm glad you said something, because it made me question my statement, and I ammended my statement above. SSD's do need free space to do garbage collection and TRIM quickly and effectively. Newer drives with the right chipsets don't slow down as much as drives from three years ago over time either. Jumping around in memory doens't have the same performance penalty as jumping around across a physical medium with mechanical componets, so there are obvious differences. However, the drive does need free space to clean up deleted data properly on SSD.

Devon

[DevonB]

So I know I'm kinda dragging on here but let's assume I can put together a silent system with a good airflow and have the hardware-side covered, will the
specific tweaks BIOS/OS-wise be noticable in terms of performance or even necessary for my ends?

If the machine needs the tweak to work, yes, it'll be necessary. Like I said above, I had BIOS settings I needed to tweak for voltage to stabilize my system right. That took time. I'd lean more towards BIOS tweaks needed for stability more than performance though. OS tweaks are sometimes needed on the newer OS's, but nowhere near what they used to be.

Devon

[Spiritos]

Ok. I am definitely thinking about OC'ing the new Haswell although I read it has temperature issues and really require water cooling (which I'm unfamiliar with) like the Hydro H100i and i never did any voltage modding so that would be quite a new challenge.

On the ADK site I read they do like 50 audio specific windows tweaks. I know how to tweak an OS but I can't think of any more than 20 audio related ones so I know I'm gonna be missing out on things here.. But I'm guessing -as you say- the OS tweaks probably lean less on stability and are more targeted at performance and I can't imagine it'll make a world of difference.

I'm gonna take a few days for some more research and then post a list of the components I have in mind. If you don't mind giving it a critical eye I'd be more than happy.

[Kaine]

I'm glad you said something, because it made me question my statement, and I ammended my statement above. SSD's do need free space to do garbage collection and TRIM quickly and effectively.

Aye, to be honest I'm still completely unsure myself althrough the method as you describe it does make perfect sense to me.

I did do a Google search (yeah, I know, asking for trouble) for "do you still need to overprovision ssd's" & "How much free space to leave on a SSD" and the results all span from 0% - 25% depending on the sernario.

The only test I can find that proves anything either way is : http://www.storagereview.com/intel_ssd_ ... ise_review which shows strong benefits for your configuration for that perticular drive, but then I'd already read that it was more important with Sandforce as other drive controller types tend to self over-provision properly in the first place. That said of course that could just be marketing hyperbole from the competition (less wasted space, more for your money, etc etc etc) and without testing results to verify, I couldn't say anything else for sure althrough it'd be great to have some more benchmarks.

I'm just working on the basis now that you've already spent more time hassling the reps over this than I have. I do reckon through that I need to go question some Samsung/Crucial techies next time one happens to drift through my office... chances are they'll be clueless too however

[DevonB]

I'm glad you said something, because it made me question my statement, and I ammended my statement above. SSD's do need free space to do garbage collection and TRIM quickly and effectively.

Aye, to be honest I'm still completely unsure myself althrough the method as you describe it does make perfect sense to me.

It's always best to look at the facts and walk through the logic of it all. Any drive is going to have a limit of IOPS it can do. For the sake of discussion, let's say 1000 IOPS. So, at the beginning, there is no GC or TRIM to deal with. They are IOPS robbing techniques that are needed, and will be 'hidden' from the user. Depending when GC and TRIM needs to happen, these are IOPS on the drive that take away from the maximum IOPS the drive could potentially could be doing for user workload. So if it's doing 500 IOPS in the background doing GC, now you could only potentially do 500 user end IOPS while it's doing GC. TRIM is going to help, as it's not going to force you to re-write data that isn't in use by the OS when GC is going on, but those blocks still need to be re-programmed to zero regardless before it could do a write to the block. So if you look at it -

Zeroed block - least IO overhead
TRIM'ed stale block - has to be zeroed
GC block with some data in it - has to be re-written to a zeroed block elsewhere and the old stale block zeroed.

Thinking about the maximum the drive can do, it's going to depend on how effective it can move and zero out blocks in the background during normal user workloads, which take away from total throughput. What I'm not quite clear on yet is why more free over provisioned blocks make it quicker than less. It leads me to believe the operations run in parallel instead of in a serial fashion, which would make sense why more would be faster if that is the case. I haven't seen any info that talks about that... yet. I do know some of the enterprise vendors try to have more OP blocks set aside to avoid the write cliff and try to keep ahead on GC to provide empty blocks to write to. More research ahead I see, if I have time.

Devon

[Kaine]

It's always best to look at the facts and walk through the logic of it all. Any drive is going to have a limit of IOPS it can do. For the sake of discussion...

Aye, agreed, the Intel review above pretty much re-affirms all you've said about IOPS in the real world. It's all quite interesting as this hasn't really come up in convsation over here before.

More research ahead I see, if I have time.

Indeed. To that end (and for personal amusement) I've hit up 8 different storage manufacturers this morning for thier take on it all. Be interesting to see how the various teams answer this one as the inital reaction from channel appears to be "WTH you on about?"

Spiritos - Sorry for hijacking your thread here, I'm starting to think it might make more sense for me and Devon to carry this on elsewhere as we're starting to drift off course now. If it interests you, we'll continue (should more info arise) otherwise feel free to ask us to keep it on topic and we'll take our rambling elsewhere.

Tweak wise, the are the common ones that are posted up everywhere and then the are others that are more beneficial to certain software programs. If you do the main ones in regards to power profile tweaking etc... you'll get the box working nicely, anything other for specific programs you can probably track down on the various manufactures FAQ's in the large part and that sould see you right.

By all means post up some hardware lists, I'm sure some guidence can be offered.

[rockstar_not]

You could send a PM to core as well. I think he lives in Maastricht. He's not necessarily a DAW building expert, but he sure makes great beats and tracks here at KVR and runs the rekkerd.org domain where he collects up all kinds of great home recording software deals, reviews, etc.

He might be able to tell you of semi-local shops in Netherlands that could help you out.