I need help layering the "right" chords around my vocal lines.

[aeropuzzle]

So I've been making music for years mainly using daws/synths etc but by no means strictly electronic or instrumental. Instrumentals are one thing (and I have no real trouble composing them) but I also write songs and I could really appreciate some good advice on effectively harmonizing them. By that I mean that almost always, starting a song for me means that a vocal line/melody that I consider great will come up which I instantly record somewhere (DAW/cellphone if not at home) which I later have no problem putting lyrics to and follow its tail writing other related vocal lines that could make for the whole verse - chorus - bridge etc. package.

The problem as you've probably guessed by now is that I cannot for the life of me write satisfactory music around it i.e lay the appropriate chords to harmonize the vocals I am singing.
I do possess music theory and some BASIC harmony knowledge meaning I am aware of how basic major and minor chords form and what intervals, triads/fifths are but that's pretty much it. Also, "knowing" something is pretty different than fully 100% understanding it and making good use of it.

So far, my attempts to work around it consist of either:
1). Trying to put chords that properly harmonize my vocals by ear. I think I have a pretty decent ear and there are times that this will work but most of the time everything just sounds wrong or just bland as I am merely writing a bassline I hear in my head that "goes well" with my vocal line and try to see if keeping that as a root note and add some triads on the top of it will result in something "correct"/satisfactory. I am sick of this because half of the time it doesn't work at all (I just can't find something appropriate) or when it does I guess the ear/brain chooses the most obvious/easy route which probably means all of my songs will sound poor and similar with each other. I don't know if that makes sense but it makes me feel like I'm a charlatan and not a musician who's stuck on trial and error hacks without the ability to improve. And I hate it.

2. Whenever I've tried to seek for advice on "how to do it properly/in the traditional MUSICAL way" either by asking someone with better musical knowledge than me (I've even taken a few guitar lessons once) or reading a book or searching online the answer always ends up being:

*See what your vocal melody notes are
*Try to find what your key is based on what notes you got so you also figure the scale.
*Harmonize with the I, IV, V chords etc. of the scale.

Are they all correct and is this the only/proper way I could go around it?
Because if it is and although I kinda do get whole concept, again, somehow I cannot full grasp it in the sense I can't sit and use this knowledge so I achieve my goal. It feels simple on paper but also too vague and like having to sit down and spend 2 hours in making math calculations in order to open a door or something. I guess that's because I haven't taken music lessons when I was a child and although as I've said I am familiar with the related music concepts/terms I have to pause and count intervals for example or study scale diagrams searching for flats and sharps, it just doesn't come naturally and feels like a somewhat tedious task in a way.

I don't know if anyone has ever been in my position before or if anyone can sees where my problem lies but I would love to hear any advice that could possibly help me getting out of this nasty spiral I've been stuck for years. Seriously, I don't know if I got a learning disability or something but it just feels like no matter how hard I try to work my way around it, there's a door right there and the key is on the table but I just can't unlock it and get out. The keyword right there is "UNLOCK" indeed. So if any kind soul can help me in any way by contributing something that could help me in getting over this, no matter if it is some tips that could enlighten me or a very focused choice of a book that targets exactly on my case without having the problems, the ambiguity and complexity we all know many theory/harmony books can have I'd be more than grateful. Thank you.

[Ogg Vorbis]

Well, all that advise is for a reason. As a writer, you need to know what key your melody is in. But it's not a bunch of math calculations to do so. It's finding out where the melody starts and resolves at the end of a key phrase that helps is sound "final."

So if your melody line ends with finality on a C, then there are only a few options in traditional tonality. Is the C the root note of a C major chord? Does that sound final?

Is that C the third of an A Minor chord? Could it be the fifth of an F major chord? If so, are there Bb's in your melody? If so, you now have leads to go on.

It is true that a melody could begin in A Minor and wind up later in C Major. You'll have to use your ears to judge if there is a continuity to the tonality or if there is a shift in there somewhere.

All this tells me that you have a gap in your music skills. If you are having trouble discern what tonal center your melodies are in, then you know where to apply your energy to reach the next level. It's not math, but it is a fixable situation. It's a skill. But it is a skill that you need...sort of like knowing how to form sentences and spell if you want to be a novelist.

Another possibility is to FORCE your melody into a particular key and see what your ears make of it. Open up your DAW and make "version 1" in C major. Pull up another file and make "version 2" in A minor. Pull up another file and make "version 3" in F major, etc.

I guarantee that after a while, your ears will tell you which one is going to "win." In this way, you've just trained your hearing a little bit more. You will definitely learn something from the exercise.

[thecontrolcentre]

You mention that you had a few guitar lessons, but not if you can play any instrument well (enough). IMHO it is important to play music, as well as "understanding" it. I would recommend learning to play songs by artists you like as a way of becoming familiar with song construction. Sometimes simple and easy is the right way to go ...

[Nanakai]

Being the theory forum, you're going to get a bunch of different answers, and then a bar fight will break out. Before we get lost in the tussle, I'll suggest that you try going through this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Yourself-Songwrit ... e+yourself

I found that it helped me sort out and organize myself creatively.

While it's not a popular answer, I think it's best that you take some piano lessons. I stress the piano because that will force you to engage music from the common practice period, which is what all this theory you're learning is meant to describe. After a year, you'll have played so many I-IV-V pieces that you'll have a solid understanding of tonal harmony. In my experience, there's much less of that with guitar, but of course just about any instrument you can learn should be capable of giving you the same experience. With a good teacher, it shouldn't take you very long to get acquainted with this experience, either. If you're in the car a lot, here's a link to some free audio ear training exercises:

http://www.andrewmartinmusic.net/fr_home.cfm

Scroll down to the "Make your own free iPod ear trainer" and look for the download link. It's a set of audio files that you shuffle on your MP3 player or put on a CD. It'll play a ii-V-I cadence, and then a single note, and you are to learn which note it is just by feeling it against the tonic. I drive 40 minutes to and from work every day, so I've found this sort of thing really useful, though sometimes frustrating. There's other ear training software out there, but as with all musical exercises, it's extremely important to apply it to music that you're hearing. Figure out melodies and chords on the guitar just from ear.

Like Ogg Vorbis said, experiment with melodies in various keys. Very fruitful.

My last bit of advice is to never, ever, ever try to take the easy way. I think that modern technology brings lots of opportunities to music education, and all the time we're learning more about learning, which lets us communicate better through video, audio and text. But with all of these advancements, it's still on you to make it happen. At the end of the day, for all our refinements, there's no replacement for the practice we put in.

[aeropuzzle]

Ogg Vorbis:
Thanks for your input. I'd like to comment on some points.

All this tells me that you have a gap in your music skills.

I do and I am aware of it. I think you only have to gain from acknowledging your weaknesses and working on improving and just like I am moderately satisfied from my music tech/producer level or lyrical skills and as much as I do like to believe I can come up with some fairly strong melodies/vocal lines, I am fully aware I got problems in the (unfortunately for me, pretty serious) harmonizing department I've described and that has been holding me back for long.

It's not math, but it is a fixable situation. It's a skill.

I know. I mentioned maths upon trying to explain how some things don't exactly come naturally to me and how the method I've mentioned feels "calculated" and tedious which automatically also spoils the creativity/art element somehow. But by no means I dismiss it, it's most likely just me feeling like that because of the knowledge gap as you've put it. I guess you're saying this is the proper and only way I could approach the whole thing? I also realize it's fixable but as you see I have problems getting to the bottom of this. As I've said I do believe that sometimes when you try to learn something/acquire a skill, you can't reach that point unless something (a well put paragraph in a book that *clicks* for you, a good teacher's phrase/tip, an advice) *unlocks* that for YOU, you know? That *click* is what I am looking for.

It's finding out where the melody starts and resolves at the end of a key phrase that helps is sound "final."

Yeah I got that this is a part of the process. The other thing I've tried is writing down all the notes of let's say my verse or chorus melody and try to rule out scales by looking at scale diagrams, based on flats/sharps or their lack of. But then various problems emerge as uncertainly of what scale could be since many seem to fit as you've described yourself with your examples and I get lost and confused. By the way, I understand it's possible that some flats and sharps can be introduced later in the song so it's possible one song belongs in many different scales which means there are multiple sets to choose chords from, right?

So if your melody line ends with finality on a C, then there are only a few options in traditional tonality. Is the C the root note of a C major chord? Does that sound final?
Is that C the third of an A Minor chord? Could it be the fifth of an F major chord? If so, are there Bb's in your melody? If so, you now have leads to go on.

Now, aren't these questions that could only been answered if I was working the other way around? I mean... I begin with a monophonic melody trying to harmonize with chords, how should I know if I my melody's C is a third of an A Minor chord when the chords is what I want to end up with?

Another possibility is to FORCE your melody into a particular key and see what your ears make of it. Open up your DAW and make "version 1" in C major. Pull up another file and make "version 2" in A minor. Pull up another file and make "version 3" in F major, etc.

The thing is, both as a composer and a simple music listener I value the vocal melody line as probably the strongest element of whether I'd like a song (instrumentals or the more experimental music genres are another story) or not. So I'd prefer not changing my vocal melody but build around that. After all, what you describe involves pretty much the same key diagram studying so I'd prefer remain faithful to my vocal line since I am getting into that anyway. I do understand what you propose though and how it could possible be a beneficiary exercise and I'd also love to have the ability working in reverse i.e making a song written on a major key sound minor, but it's obvious I've got other stuff to learn before that anyway.

Again, thanks for your reply.

[aeropuzzle]

Being the theory forum, you're going to get a bunch of different answers, and then a bar fight will break out.

Oh well, hopefully that won't happen and as I've already acknowledged my weakness people could contribute something helpful. At least before the police joins the party as well.

You mention that you had a few guitar lessons, but not if you can play any instrument well (enough). IMHO it is important to play music, as well as "understanding" it.

While it's not a popular answer, I think it's best that you take some piano lessons. I stress the piano because that will force you to engage music from the common practice period, which is what all this theory you're learning is meant to describe.With a good teacher, it shouldn't take you very long to get acquainted with this experience, either.

The plan was to do exactly that. Solve the problem I talked about on this thread while managing to learn playing the guitar in the process. But these guitar lessons didn't go too well so unfortunately I can't properly play any instruments and this is highly disappointing to me as you can imagine to the point I've even considered quitting since I am also not exactly young anymore (29). I could very well blame the teacher but dunno... that'd be the easy way, right? Maybe it was me. But I do love music with all my heart and since I haven't quit after all these years I refuse to let it go since this what I'd want to do in life more than anything else. I m sure you know the feeling. The fact that other people (including musicians) have found positive things to say about my music also makes me think that I shouldn't quit.

My last bit of advice is to never, ever, ever try to take the easy way. I think that modern technology brings lots of opportunities to music education, and all the time we're learning more about learning, which lets us communicate better through video, audio and text. But with all of these advancements, it's still on you to make it happen. At the end of the day, for all our refinements, there's no replacement for the practice we put in.

I understand what you're saying and although as you can imagine the fact I didn't exactly had much success with that guitar teacher is discouraging from going that route again (money is also an issue) I am not trying to take shortcuts in the "lazy" sense. It all has to do with that "click"/"unlocking" I've described. Btw the instruments of my choosing (those I own and mainly featured in my music) are the guitar and keyboards (in the sense of working with midi keyboards/synth etc) so another thing I've been wondering about is where should I focus in order to improve my skills as a composer while being able to learn an instrument good enough to be able to play on stage at some point.

Thanks a lot for the ear trainer and book recommendations Nanakai, I'll make sure to check them out. Thanks for the advice as well.

[Ogg Vorbis]

I know. I mentioned maths upon trying to explain how some things don't exactly come naturally to me and how the method I've mentioned feels "calculated" and tedious which automatically also spoils the creativity/art element somehow.

I know how you feel. When you are trying to get something down, you don't want to turn things in to tedium and drudgery. However, a couple of thoughts:

1) Music is hard. It can be tedious and difficult. We all want to get on stage and belt it out under constant inspiration and look like a music god, but the fact is, often musical path is like digging a ditch only not nearly as glamorous.

2) You can figure out adaptations with a teacher's help. Sometimes a difficulty learning something can be dealt with by coming up with a creative strategy in response to it. A teacher can help without letting you fall into facile solutions. I have learned about lots of professional musicians who had a hard time dealing with some foundational skill and they learned a new way around it and turned this into a strength.

I suggest not "giving in" to your difficulty learning something by giving yourself permission to NOT learn it. Instead, try to create an adaptation.

As I've said I do believe that sometimes when you try to learn something/acquire a skill, you can't reach that point unless something (a well put paragraph in a book that *clicks* for you, a good teacher's phrase/tip, an advice) *unlocks* that for YOU, you know? That *click* is what I am looking for.

By pushing yourself a little bit, you will set up ripe conditions for a "click" to happen (hint: it never really DOES come from the book or the teacher...it only LOOKS like it does...it comes from a ready student). Push a little bit each day and try to stretch your skills. Try a little bit to force a solution and then ease back. Eat some ice cream as a reward. Then hit it again. Repeat.

The thing is, both as a composer and a simple music listener I value the vocal melody line as probably the strongest element of whether I'd like a song (instrumentals or the more experimental music genres are another story) or not. So I'd prefer not changing my vocal melody but build around that.

Oh, I didn't mean to CHANGE your melody line! I meant for version 1, try it EXACTLY AS IT IS note for note in key #1, then in key #2 and so on. If you gave me a melody of all "white notes" on the piano, I could harmonize it in A Minor, then I could harmonize it in F Lydian, then in C Major, then in G Mixolydian, then in D Dorian, etc. until I came up with a version that seemed correct.

I have a hunch that you will "recognize" which one is correct. Your ears probably know what they are after...it's that your brain has to figure it out. Perhaps for you, your adaptation is to harmonize your vocal in a bunch of different keys in order to rule out the incorrect ones.

But that actually wouldn't be a bad adaptation in the long run.

[Nanakai]

The plan was to do exactly that. Solve the problem I talked about on this thread while managing to learn playing the guitar in the process. But these guitar lessons didn't go too well so unfortunately I can't properly play any instruments and this is highly disappointing to me as you can imagine to the point I've even considered quitting since I am also not exactly young anymore (29). I could very well blame the teacher but dunno... that'd be the easy way, right? Maybe it was me. But I do love music with all my heart and since I haven't quit after all these years I refuse to let it go since this what I'd want to do in life more than anything else. I m sure you know the feeling. The fact that other people (including musicians) have found positive things to say about my music also makes me think that I shouldn't quit.

Believe me, I get it. I'm a late starter myself. I don't think it was you or your teacher, but the type of music you were learning. Beginner piano music tends to give the barebones of tonal harmony in a very simple structure. You are fed the essence of tonality over and over and over again, which is what all of that theory is based on. Beginner guitar lessons tend to teach popular or folk music, which isn't bad at all, but since it doesn't follow that same simple structure, you're not getting the same input. What the "right" chords are at any given time is dependent on the context of the music, which you have to learn how to hear.

Anyways, keep at it. You'll get there someday. Maybe I will, too.

[Xenobt]

Try writing your monophonic bass lines, and maybe even lead lines too, with an emphasis on harmony and counterpoint to your main melody. And as those melodies build against one another, you may find that chords aren't really needed and just clog up the arrangement.

But most of the time, what works will be a near arpeggio of the chords you need, and all the rhythmic variation will make the arrangement bigger, suggest drum parts, and avoid the dreaded/standard root note bass with triad on top that you mentioned earlier (and I know ALL too well myself!:roll: )

It doesn't work for everything, but it'll at least get you in a related harmony to the root key, which can be pretty cool too, especially for doing remixes where the track is replaced entirely.

KVR/eSoundz: Xenobt

[stringtapper]

Try writing your monophonic bass lines, and maybe even lead lines too, with an emphasis on harmony and counterpoint to your main melody.

This.

Starting with a two-voice texture is a great way to get your foot in the door to harmonizing melodies.

There's a lot of information to be gleaned simply from the interval between bass and melody. Most harmony can be distilled to four (or less) voices. From a purely theoretical view, once you've got a melody and a bass you've already whittled down the possibilities of what harmonies you can use (depending on what style writing in of course). A good bass line that acts a both a strong harmonic support and as a countermelody to the melody will often allow the harmony to "write itself."

Write that melody, then work out a bass line by improvising under the melody. If you can't do this at the same time on an instrument then sequence your melody in a DAW and then improvise the bass line while it plays. Record what you do. Listen back to find what works and what doesn't. When you find something that works analyze the intervals between the two voices and see if you find any consistency in why your ear thinks it works.

Once you have those two voices written then it's a matter of finding what your inner voices should be playing. Knowing how to build and spell triads and seventh chords as well as how their inversions work is very important for this step, especially if you want your harmonies to have good voice leading (i.e. smooth melodic motion within voices). The bass doesn't always have to be the root of the chord!

[JumpingJackFlash]

Get a good book on harmony.

This one is good start; you can get it half price if you agree not to photocopy anything.