Cracks in figures

[Lotuzia]

Interesting topic.

Most Xils-Lab plugs are still virgin.

And when the cr-ckers benefit of these nice bombs intentionnaly left for them, they come to the conclusion that ...... the plugs are faulty

It was big fun to see that my PandemOxium soundbank was at last pir_ted, and read what happened to all the smart people who tried to install it on w_rezed versions of Oxium.

And to Bmanic : The "try" thing is just the Nth p_rate excuse : they not only -try to- break all plugs that have demo versions, but also .. frewware, and that since the beginning. Its obvious if you consider sotware not music related. Massively p_rated as well. And even music itself ( Now music is worth around nothing ) To be clear people only use w_rez because its possible and -seems- easy to do. If pizzas were digital, you'd soon see pizzerias close and pizzaiolos getting jobless. And thats all/

LtZ

[rp314]

To be clear people only use w_rez because its possible and -seems- easy to do.

It's mostly true, no?

Elsewhere, some might be saying something similar regarding the actions of certain information gathering agencies.

So it goes...

[SODDI]

Hi all,

About a year ago we started to use Google Analytics on our website. One nice thing it can do is, it gives us quite nice charts of all sorts of things. This includes a statistical evaluation of people who click links in our "expired demo versions". Latter is our term for an incomplete crack of our software.

Here's a chart of one year of traffic to our website, generated from cracks that didn't quite work out:

http://www.u-he.com/img/GoLegits.png

What does it mean?

I cannot read the chart properly on KVR and am not about to dispute your methodology, but could not entirely innocent actions account for some of this?

I am terrible at letting demos time out, forgetting what the hell I was looking at and how much the plug-in was; and if the plug-in told me to visit a certain website I just might to reconsider a purchase. Doesn't mean I'm going to buy, it just means I'm still interested.

Not everyone is a pirate; some of us are just space cadets.

[Urs]

I cannot read the chart properly on KVR and am not about to dispute your methodology, but could not entirely innocent actions account for some of this?

The method is space cadets proof

Those links have never been posted in any forum on the internet. And if they were, we would have found out by a so-called "referrer id". There was never a referrer - not even anonymous.to or peeplink.in - so we can say for very, very sure that those links were clicked from within our software.

And of course, even if you had used our software for months in demo mode (some people might like that ), you would never have been presented with those links. They are only displayed when the software finds out that it's been cracked.

Even if a few were clicked twice and what not. It's there. The people are there. As a developer (and probably more so as a musician, a writer, a film crew or a photographer) this feels miserable. The exploitation of creative people is miserable. Us software peeps have the chance to add copy protection. In our case we could do a tiny bit of statistics. I don't need to moan, but I feel for those who would be off much better with that extra sale that got lost.

[chk071]

I don't need to moan, but I feel for those who would be off much better with that extra sale that got lost.

I don't want to say this point is right or wrong, but want to throw in just a question: How would you determine whether someone using cracks would have really bought the software or not, if he was legit/had the money? The reason i throw it in is, the way i experienced it, many of my friends who used/use cracks would have never thought about producing music seriously, let alone do it as a profession. I know, those who do, and still use cracks should be crucified as they make a business out of it, and would have the money to buy it easily, but can those who don't and have no intentions to do anything serious with it, can be blamed for lost sales? I don't think so. I know, they should still not use, if they're not able or willing to buy it, but my point is that those aren't lost sales really.

[Bronto Scorpio]

Of course the vast majority of crack users aren't really lost sales, but there are at least some poeple who would buy the software if there were no cracks availabe (as the "ACE day" clearly shows).

People also have to remember that we are talking about audio software here, even 100 lost sales are already a lot.

Very interesting thread by the way!

Cheers
Dennis

[kinwie]

if just for fun or hobby....they can use freewares. lots of great freewares everyone can google. if they need that sound or effect processing, then they should buy it. if they can't afford....just don't use it....except the dev is allowed them to.

that's my opinion

[chk071]

You're right, but you know how it is. Everyone wants to use the bestest available, even for their jerky amateur work. Anyway, i think it's good and fair to say, that there is not the one warez users, but people do it for different reasons. Of course you can't treat them all differently, but i think a good way to prevent people using warez, is maybe to try and reach those who can be reached, while taking the necessary steps for people who can't be reached. I know some companies already do that, like Cockos, and u-he also in a way, while some companies have kind of a "we implement a harsh copy protection to not have to deal with warez users" politic, which obviously pisses off a lot of the valid users too.

[kinwie]

Of course the vast majority of crack users aren't really lost sales, but there are at least some poeple who would buy the software if there were no cracks availabe (as the "ACE day" clearly shows).

People also have to remember that we are talking about audio software here, even 100 lost sales are already a lot.

Very interesting thread by the way!

Cheers
Dennis

Very true, Bronto. Even some major label/big studios in my country here seems forget the need of purchasing what they need of plugins since the cracked plugs already lies in their system...maybe installed by some of their tech guys...
If there were no cracks...i bet they'll buy at once they need it. That's a big lost.

[kinwie]

You're right, but you know how it is. Everyone wants to use the bestest available, even for their jerky amateur work.

That's your job to tell your friends to don't use cracks since you already understand many reasons u read here. If they still do...kill them

What u say, Urs?

[Lotuzia]

...... The reason i throw it in is, the way i experienced it, many of my friends who used/use cracks would have never thought about producing music seriously, let alone do it as a profession. I know, those who do, and still use cracks should be crucified as they make a business out of it, and would have the money to buy it easily, but can those who don't and have no intentions to do anything serious with it, can be blamed for lost sales? I don't think so. I know, they should still not use, if they're not able or willing to buy it, but my point is that those aren't lost sales really.

Well, these are not all lost sales because if people cant pi-ate that X software they will just use Y cr_cked softawre. If there was no alternative, that wsould be a totally different story. And I think that here mutualising some anti piracy global ideas might benefit everybody.

Now,if we transpose what you say from another pov :

I dont play tennis as a pro. But I pay to rent a tennis court, and I did not steal my racket. I read a lot, but I'm not an editor. And I pay my books. People have a lot of leisure and hobbyes and do pay for that. Because people work to offer them good conditions to practise whatever sport/hobbye they like. When you go to the swimming pool you're not expecting dead fish in the pool because employees have been fired because the swimming pool has been pirated.

Lets face the simple truth : some people do pi_ate everything because it's possible ( aka digital) and supposed to be easy. Thats just that.

Should they think a bit more about it, and try to match whatever moral standards they show in other aspects of their lives, I think most of them would not use w_rez. Its also a matter of education, share true information, spreading the word, try to raise a bit people consciousness.

[Urs]

How would you determine whether someone using cracks would have really bought the software or not, if he was legit/had the money?

That's not really the question here. I was just giving people a rough and ultra conservative insight about the extent of exploitation. 1300 power users are a very optimistic figure. The truth is most likely a tenfold number. Whether or not they would have paid isn't in question at all. Fact is: They haven't.

[Frantz]

However, some of our timebombs are really friendly. They just display a black hole on the UI or so. This means, the users can still bounce their tracks.

We have to yet decide if we also want to impose more "demo restrictions" that work on the audio. While I think this is less friendly, it may increase our revenue from cracks dramatically.

I don't see why you would want it to produce any audio at all once the timebomb fires. To optimize revenue, I think it should display a "demo has expired" message and stop functioning. I think this should only happen to users who have invested a lot of time (150+ hours) with the plug-in.

Screen melting doesn't seem to serve any purpose. I think the neutral demo has expired message is less likely to get someone upset.

We've been discussing the use of "honeypots" for crackers to turn piracy into a marketing instrument.

Do you mean upload fake cracks on warez sites yourselves? If so, it seems like a sensible strategy. Maybe crackers wouldn't bother if they see it's already been cracked. Of course, your fake crack would have all sorts of timebombs after a few months of use.

[codec_spurt]

Poor people can not afford to buy your software. No sales lost there.

Poor people with no morals - ditto.

People that can afford to buy your software. These make up the vast majority of sales.

People that can afford to buy your software but have no morals. These make up the vast amount of lost sales, you could have had.


Funnily enough, the most talented crackers I know, buy your software. It's not just synth plugins they buy - they buy their full Ableton live. They buy what they use, and it is only a hobby for most of them. But they have money, and morals, so they pay for it.

The worst offenders, and this isn't just music software - it is all software across the board, are the middle class trying to better themselves - better car - further holiday - they are just absolutely terrible. More people from this demographic use cracked software than even poor people. I'm poor. I go without hot running water and heating in winter to be able to indulge my little habit.

These people, some of whom I fix computers for or other stuff, they pay for nothing. It is a principle for them. Only mugs pay for software. We are talking about university educated people here with 100,000 euros a year career. The sort that will try to short change you or question you or be suspicious about what you did. The kind that will not even pay you after you spent time and were not able to fix their computer.

Not all of them. But, Urs, I am sure you realise that there are people out there that just can not afford to buy your software. But, like me, they will save up for it and get it eventually, because they have morals. I think cutting them a bit of slack is good for your business. But where to draw the line with those other ones eh? Tricky.

Of course I am talking about people using cracked Microsoft and what have you office programs. CAD stuff. Now, it was an open secret at Uni that there were those amongst us who were using 'non-legit' copies of 3D proggies. At 3-4000 quid a pop, not really any surprise, especially to the reps that would come in, encouraging us to use THEIR program. They didn't condone it, but it went on and nothing was said. They knew that when they had someone 'hooked' on their 'fix' that was pretty much it. You start using it in a pipeline and you aren't going to just jump ship and learn a new package over night. Too much of a learning curve, even amongst 3D programs.

Anyway, these people were working in the industry, and they were using cracked CAD programs, because they could get away with it. There was no way in hell they would ever pay that for a computer program. That's a nicer new car. That's another holiday somewhere.

I have made my point. Hopefully.




It's pretty cool to see you on the warez sites Urs. There are a lot of crackers that really respect you. Don't worry about the dumb entitled shits. They are of no consequence. I bet their music is crap too.

If you are serious about opening up your protection methods, there are people out there that still take pride in the fine art of reverse engineering. They don't do requests, they won't even share what they have already cracked, and they certainly won't point you to a download site where there may be one. A lot of them already have good jobs, and some of them don't because they are misfits. But they are misfits with morals. A good few of them come from your neck of the woods too.

I think they would be overjoyed to do a little close consultation work with you. For one to get access to you your fiendishly clever copy protections, because, so far, there is not a program they have not been able to crack, between them, over a period of time - maybe yours is different. I can't say. All I do know is, these people have morals, and can keep a secret. They would be the ones to go to, but I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve.

How would you feel about creating a 100 percent absolutely non-crackable version? Interesting prospect. You sound as if you are pretty close to that already by yourself. Are you looking for more fiendishly clever ways to hook people in, track people down, gain a better insight towards those that use your cracked software and what their exact demographic is?


Forget I said anything. It's late. I'm rambling. But very interesting stuff to put out there into the public domain, for sure. I just wanted to try to add something to it if possible. Not sure if I succeeded. Cum grano salis.


But remember, there's a crack, in everything, that's where the light gets in!

[dalor]

If the timebomb changes the sound/noise over time I bet there will be heaps of support requests and bitching about how noisy/pitchy it sounds and how full of bugs UH-HE products are. I can see KVR Topics like "Help, Diva out of tune/noisy?!".

Wasn't there a couple of threads on bitching about Zebra's melting GUI, claiming to be a bug?

Priceless