Key Action on Novation vs Nektar vs Studiologic vs Roland

[rotini]

I've been wanting to avoid making a thread for as long as possible, but after a couple months and several returned keyboards, I don't think it's a terrible idea to ask for some more opinions. I'd really like to hear your thoughts since my time/availability in trying out keyboards is limited, I'm relatively inexperienced, and most of the keyboards aren't available at the local music stores.

My criteria:
1) Good keybed. I'm leaning towards semi-weighted/synth action but hammer action is also viable. I'm a beginner so I'll be adjusting accordingly, and in addition, I don't mind picking up another keyboard in the future. At the end of the day, it just has to be solid, reliable, have good velocity sensing, have good feeling, and preferably not super noisy/have clacky keys.

2) 49 to 88 keys, 61 preferred. Willing to compromise # of keys in favor of quality of keybed.

3) Preferably compact. This leaves a lot of workstations/synthesizers out since they tend to be very bulky. It's not a deal-killer for me, but I'd like to be able to place this on or under my desk.

4) Control surface options are great, ideally I'd like something that has some encoders to control plugins so that I'm controlling the instrument. Other controls like transport, faders, etc. are great but I can always add those on a dedicated control surface.

What would you choose, ASSUMING price is EQUAL?

Studiologic VMK - Hammer action, controller functions, even comes in 61 keys. EXCEPT velocity sensing is flawed according to what I've read (basically, velocities between 90 and 100, 100 and 110, 110 and 120, etc. do NOT read from the keyboard - hardware issue that is not fixable by software)

Studiologic Numa Nano - Hammer action, limited controller functions, 88 keys, seems to overcome the velocity sensing issue since you can make/use different velocity curves. Downside is I'm not convinced if hammer action will be versatile enough for me to use for other things like triggering drum samples or synth playing. Also, I have heard negative things about reliability regarding these Fatar keybeds.

Novation SL MkII - Very nice feeling semi-weighted synth style keybed, great controller functions, perhaps a little flimsy on build quality. 61-key version is too expensive and I'll probably have to go with a 49 key version used. Would be nice if there is a JUST a keyboard out there that has the exact same action of the Novation so I have the option of adding the control surface later on, but either way, this is a really nice option.

Novation Impulse? - I'm mainly interested in hearing opinions on how the keybed feels in comparison to the SL MkII since I've heard it's also good, but different (piano style semi-weighted?), whatever that means.

Nektar Panorama P4 - Awesome looking keyboard with great control surface functions. Biggest question mark is how is the keybed? If the keybed is solid and compares very well to the others listed here then I very may well go with this. But I've heard very conflicting opinions on the action and there's no way for me to test them. Reviews describe it as a compromise between synth and piano action, but I never know what this means.

Roland A-800 Pro - Have this at the moment but have to return it since it arrived defective (USB port broken). Have also owned briefly the A-300 and A-500 Pro so am familiar with the action. Love the compactness, the simplicity/build quality, and the action is nice though I could do with slightly larger keys. Just want to know if there is something better out there.

I'm also considering other older used keyboards that are available locally, such as the Roland A-90EX, Yamaha Motif 6, Korg Triton Pro-X, some digital pianos, and even the Waldorf Blofeld (all these at around the same price). I'm just not sure how they compare to the other controllers I've listed.

Right now I'm leaning towards the Novation SL MkII, Roland A-800 Pro, Numa Nano, and Nektar, in that order.

Oh, and I'm also aware that there are some new keyboard controllers coming in 2014 from Korg, Alesis, Akai, and Behringer. They all look nice but the biggest question would be their keybeds, since I can always add a dedicated control surface later on. In fact, I already have a Tascam US-2400 with 24 motorized faders, but would like something for controlling plugins as well.

[Jim Y]

Not much help maybe, but you can usually bet the smaller manufacturers use keybeds from the same company - Fatar. This would include anything by Studiologic. Fatar seem to be the only source for organ style waterfall beds in the world, but they also make various weighted, hammer and synth action ones.
The compromise action many use is really a synth action with stronger springing - piano players don't like light keys - probably they are used to keys that if accidentally touched, then they won't sound
Hammer keybed types vary from just strong springing to full hammer escapement.
I think it's been said many times here that if piano action is crucial to you, then you won't find better than those on recent, high end digital pianos. Even Casio now have some well regarded boards on the newer Privia models such as the 350. I've seen a controller from Kawai which uses one of their top beds, but I think the cost is too much - it makes more sense to get the piano. Years hence, it will be easier to sell a complete instrument than a controller that is no longer compatible with computer systems.

[rotini]

Thanks for the reply. For some reason I've been straying from digital pianos (perhaps this is common with non-piano players) but after looking at the CP-150 which is identical to the CP-350 in terms of action/keybed, this looks like a strong contender.

I'm just curious as to why the CP-150 is only $500 shipped when keyboard controllers such as the Studiologic series are $1000+? Are they supposed to have better action? Is the idea that you are paying more for the digital piano features (ie internal speakers and builtin sounds) and less for the actual keyboard flawed?

[EvilDragon]

Best semi-weighted/synth keybeds I've ever played: Yamaha DX7, Korg M1, Korg M3, Waldorf Blofeld Keyboard.

[rotini]

There is a Blofeld local to me that I can get pretty cheap. I'm wondering if it's worth just using it for the keybed, and counting the synth part as an extra bonus. I'll be playing piano parts in addition to triggering samples.

[EvilDragon]

Then no go on that... If you're serious about playing piano parts you should really have a weighted board...

[Jim Y]

On Casio, I would only warn that the CP150 doesn't have proper Midi ports - only USB.

Many years ago, I think it was Korg and Yamaha co-financed keybed development and that's what ended up in boards like the M1 and even in entry level boards like the X5. It's a very easy and quiet action indeed. Maybe the tooling for those wore out? Injection moulding tools don't last forever.

[rotini]

I looked into the CP150 and the only drawback I see is that it doesn't have a Line Out, only a headphone out. Granted, the sound quality may not be very audible in practice between the two, but it would be nice to hook up the Line Outs directly to my interface and record, without having to worry about bad gainstaging using the headphone outs. Moving up to the CP 350 might be more than I'm willing to spend since I'm already stretching my budget for some good keys (I'm a beginner).

Thanks for the insight on the Korgs. I'll definitely look into it if I find one cheap. Really appreciate the information I'm getting here.

I will also be using these mainly as controllers, but after reading more about the Casio's, I was curious as to how the onboard sounds of the Casio compare with the high-end VST piano plugins, such as Ivory? Am I correct in assuming that the high end VST's will sound better due to the increased CPU power?

[earlevel]

I'm just curious as to why the CP-150 is only $500 shipped when keyboard controllers such as the Studiologic series are $1000+? Are they supposed to have better action? Is the idea that you are paying more for the digital piano features (ie internal speakers and builtin sounds) and less for the actual keyboard flawed?

Numbers. How many people on your street are candidates for buying a CP-150? How many for Studiologic controller? Companies like Casio and Yamaha make a lot of these sort of things, including many models with the same components.

I was faced with a similar situation a few years ago. I was looking at 88-key weighted controllers that had a nice complement of MIDI sliders and controls, but the keys felt like crap to me. My sales guy said, "You know, a lot of people are buying the low-end Casio piano as a controller…" Huh? That sounded pretty silly, but I tried it, and walked out with one for several hundred dollars less than the controller I was looking at, with far better piano action. A bonus of the Casio Privia keyboards is that they weigh 23-24 pounds (yet somehow feel extremely solid when playing them). The Casio keyboards have changed a little since then, with some texture to the finish for instance, so it may or may not be my choice today (though I was playing a console Privia at the NAMM show that felt very nice). My buddy went looking for the same situation recently, and opted for the low-end Yamaha.

[rotini]

Wow.

I just looked at the Casio PX-X50 line, and wandered into the PX-5S. This thing looks amazing.

I came with the intention of stretching my budget to a couple hundred dollars for a good controller to learn on and produce music with, but... this thing looks just inspiring.

Would you guys recommend this as a first piano? Also, is it just me or does this seem like a game changer? I haven't done my research into digital pianos yet but this seems to blow "keyboard controllers" out of the water. Sure, maybe no DAW functionality but those can be easily added in later.

[earlevel]

I saw the PX-5S at the NAMM Show, looked like a big winner at that price point.

[rotini]

This may sound strange, but I feel guilty for buying an instrument of this supposed caliber when considering my skill level. It's not really an issue of budget, but I feel overly materialistic (i.e. "gear slutty") when I spring for high quality gear that doesn't quite match my level, and also silly that I try to justify my "ambitions". Would this be overkill for a beginner? Someone talk me through this

[trusampler]

I've owned an m3 n kronos the nektar is on par, with a workstations feel n action, n love its features.

[earlevel]

This may sound strange, but I feel guilty for buying an instrument of this supposed caliber when considering my skill level. It's not really an issue of budget...

Funny, I had this conversation with…it's not important, let's just say he's responsible for a couple of different highly regarded high-tech things for musicians (one an instrument, one not)…at NAMM...

In our conversation, he said, "Well, we don't really compete with them. We're more of the DDL crowd—are you familiar with that one?"

Me: "DDL?"

"Yes—doctors, dentists, and lawyers. Musicians can't really afford this stuff."

Meaning working musicians, of course. And that's pretty true. The $5k guitars…well, the superstars have models built for them, and if you're a gigging musician, you'd better be very successful or have alternate income, so guess who buys them…dam, just saw that the top-end for (vintage) electrics on guitarcenter is at $72k for a '53 Tele…pages and pages of guitars over $20k...

[EvilDragon]

Many years ago, I think it was Korg and Yamaha co-financed keybed development and that's what ended up in boards like the M1 and even in entry level boards like the X5. It's a very easy and quiet action indeed. Maybe the tooling for those wore out? Injection moulding tools don't last forever.

X5 has terrible keys, not the same at all as M1 or DX7... Quiet action? No, they aren't, any of them.