Pitches and notes

[fluffy_little_something]

People talk a lot about music theory, chord progression etc. in this forum. I used to learn that stuff at high school, but forgot all of it. I play only based on what sounds OK to my ears. I also sing, and intuitively correctly, even when improvising. But I have a different problem:
Since I restarted to make music after a hiatus of a quarter of a century, I have been trying to learn how to associate keys on the keyboard with the respective pitches. I thought it would work like learning how to type using 10 fingers, which has become an automated process by now, I know which key produces which letter without thinking about it or looking at the computer keyboard. But somehow that doesn't seem to work with musical notes. I know which chords on the keyboard sound nice, merely based on where my fingers are, but somehow they seem separated from pitch. When I hear a single note, I could not tell whether it is a c or a g or whatever. It's like the keyboard is not fixed but floating up or down, so a c could be anywhere on the keyboard. Same with singing, I have no idea which notes I am singing, which key I am in etc. There is no pitch reference point so to speak.

How can I learn to associate pitches and notes?

[DSmolken]

You mean develop absolute pitch? I guess it's possible to try, but most of the people who have it never trained it and they say it's like C and G are different colors or something. So, transpose a song to a different key and it will seem quite different to them. Not sure if it's possible to really learn that.

Conventional ear training always focuses more on developing a great sense of relative pitch (so you can tell a major third from a fourth easily), which is probably much more useful and important. The time-tested way to do that is to practice sight-singing.

[fluffy_little_something]

Well, what I mean is that many musicians can tell you which notes they hear and play, they can tell that it is a g4 or whatever. I have no idea of either note or octave.
At school we used to learn that the c is kind of a reference point. But to me any note sounds like a c or a g or whatever. So I play a c on my keyboard and think to myself, this is a c, remember that, will you And a second later after playing other notes it sounds like any other note again

[MadBrain]

Nobody can hear the difference between C and G (except the very few people with absolute pitch). The way your ear works is that it's relative: you can't tell a C apart from a G, but you play them together or one after the other, can hear the _interval_ between the two (a 5th). You should learn to recognize all 12 basic intervals by ear:

- Minor 2nd
- Major 2nd
- Minor 3rd
- Major 3rd
- 4th
- Tritone (aka augmented 4th or diminished 5th)
- 5th
- Minor 6th
- Major 6th
- Minor 7th
- Major 7th
- Octave

This makes it possible to transcribe a song as long as you know its key, since you can hear the interval between each note and the key center.

For instance, if you hear a note that's a major 3rd up from the key center, and you know the song is in G, then it's easy to figure out that this note is a B (third note in the G major scale).

[JumpingJackFlash]

As DSmolken said, true "absolute pitch" is very rare and very difficult to acquire - in other words, it's a waste of time trying to get it because you'll likely never be able to.

What you should strive for instead is "relative pitch" (in fact, this is arguably more useful than the above anyway). This is where you work out a pitch in relation to some reference point.

So, play (or sing) a C. Then immediately afterwards (or simultaneously if you prefer) play (or sing) another note (in the same octave). Work out what that second note is by using the C as a reference point. - Is it higher or lower, and by how much?

It often helps to think of a well-known tune to help you; for example Twinkle Twinkle Little Star (or the Star Wars theme) begins with the interval of a perfect fifth (C to G or the equivalent from any other pitch), so if your notes sound like this, you know it'll be a perfect fifth too. There are some websites that can help you with this; try putting "ear training" into google.

If you want to know where the notes are on a keyboard, look how the black notes are grouped into twos and threes. The note "C" is always immediately to the left of the group of two black notes. Musical notes follow the letters of the alphabet A,B,C,D,E,F,G and then back to A again.

[fluffy_little_something]

Thanks
Yes, I know the names of the keys of course, i.e. which notes they are. But should someone ask me to sing a G, I couldn't

OK, so I won't waste my time trying to learn something I probably can't anyway, and focus on intervals instead.

When people say a song is in G, what does that mean? Is that the most important note in the song? Is it just me or do only 3 of those intervals sound wrong somehow? Twice when hitting two "neighboring" keys and the tritone thingy...

[JumpingJackFlash]

But should someone ask me to sing a G, I couldn't

Most people (even professional musicians) couldn't out of context.
As I said, the important thing is to be able to sing a G after someone plays you a C (or some other reference point). - Do it in context rather than in isolation.

When people say a song is in G, what does that mean? Is that the most important note in the song?

Essentially yes, it means G feels like "home", like the place where things resolve towards.

Traditionally, "in G" means "in G major", which means as well as G being the home note (which we call "tonic"), it means most of the notes correspond to the G major scale - so, G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G. In other words, the Fs will normally be sharp. (Occasionally, notes foreign to the key will still be heard, we call these "chromatic" notes. Pieces can also move from one key to another).

In a more modern context, it might not necessarily be referring to G major but could refer to any mode in which G is the "home" note. G Mixolydian for example. - I advise getting major and minor keys sorted before you tackle modes though as you are likely to get confused (and overwhelmed). - Unless of course you are only interested in music which primarily uses modes, in which case just concentrate on these and leave "major" and "minor" until later (but either way, the key thing is not to run until you can walk).

Is it just me or do only 3 of those intervals sound wrong somehow? Twice when hitting two "neighboring" keys and the tritone thingy...

I'm not quite sure what you're referring to here, but yes, seconds and tritones often sound like a jarring clash - we usually call this "dissonance".

[fluffy_little_something]

Ah I see, the home must be what they call movable Do here (they still have those old note names like Do, Sol etc. for notes, the ABC is simpler, though)

[JumpingJackFlash]

Ah I see, the home must be what they call movable Do here (they still have those old note names like Do, Sol etc. for notes, the ABC is simpler, though)

Yes, Do is the home or "tonic".
Incidentally, if you need a reference:

Do - Tonic
Re - Supertonic
Mi - Mediant
Fa - Subdominant
Sol - Dominant
La - Submediant
Ti - Leading Note

[DSmolken]

Yes, movable Do. The "do re mi" note names are something I've only encountered in two places. One is Latin music (gotta love it when somebody tells you to play "si" and you think it's "cee" and play a C and it's totally wrong), and the other one happens to be ear training exercises.

[fluffy_little_something]

Yes, movable Do. The "do re mi" note names are something I've only encountered in two places. One is Latin music (gotta love it when somebody tells you to play "si" and you think it's "cee" and play a C and it's totally wrong), and the other one happens to be ear training exercises.

Yes, I live in Portugal, they only seem to use those names here, no matter for which genre...
The first time I stumbled upon Sol, I didn't know they were referring to a note, but sun didn't make any sense, either

I grew up with the alphabet, well, more or less, they refer to the B as H, but other than that the main notes are the same as in English. Sharp and flat notes are different, though, like fis for f sharp and ges for g flat and so on

[Tricky-Loops]

Are these Do-Re-Mi-Fa-Sol-La-Ti names still important? I forgot them decades ago. I know what a tonic, supertonic, subdominant, dominant, mediant, submediant, leading tone etc. is, and I know how to write them in Roman numbers, is this sufficient?

[fluffy_little_something]

Are these Do-Re-Mi-Fa-Sol-La-Ti names still important? I forgot them decades ago. I know what a tonic, supertonic, subdominant, dominant, mediant, submediant, leading tone etc. is, and I know how to write them in Roman numbers, is this sufficient?

No idea if they are important. If you never need them, they are probably not important to you
I have no idea what those terms mean in a musical context.

[fluffy_little_something]

I just discovered that I actually am able to sing the note C out of context (probably dating back to high school where C was treated like the center of the music universe and burned into our brains ), but really only C. And I also noticed that I really suck at judging those intervals

[DSmolken]

Note names do get messy, especially when talking to people from a different countries. Around here use of Bb, B and H is completely inconsistent and depends on who you're talking to, their educational background, the genres they're used to and their age.

But if you're talking in English and can't write things down then just call notes C, C# etc. and call intervals diminished/minor/perfect/major/augmented second/third/fourth etc. Knowing a mediant from a subdominant is useful when talking theory, but in real life most people will just say "third chord" and "fourth chord" or "three chord" and "four chord". That works pretty well.

And, getting back on topic, you want to be able to sing intervals. That's the most effective way to drill their sound into your head.