Please help me with a decision

[musicdevelopments]

Dear RC user!

I need your input about naming chords, when using roman numerals. I am thinking about this for days but I cannot make a decision. Then I thought it would be the best to ask you...

When using 'relative' (roman numeral) notation at the moment each scale degree is a roman numeral:
Major scale:
I IIm IIIm IV V VIm VIIdim
Minor scale:
Im IIdim III IVm Vm VI VII
So the note 'VI' is actually 'Ab' on the C minor scale and 'A' on the C major scale.

There is another notation which always uses the major scale degrees, that is the minor scale would look like:
Im IIdim bIII IVm Vm bVI bVII

This has the advantage that any note or chord can be represented, while the current solution simply cannot display chords with an out-of-scale base note. Using two different notations would be a bad idea.

Would that be acceptable for everybody to use second notation from now in RC? Maybe it is more standard?

Thanks for your thoughts about it...
Attila

[BlackWinny]

I'm just an amateur but I would be for this one:
Im IIdim bIII IVm Vm bVI bVII
Because even if it is not very "orthodox"... at least one can see clearly what is used.

And also another argument to not reject it: as far as I know it doesn't introduce any ambiguity with another chord... If it was the fact, of course it could be the source of a problem, but in my weak knowledge of the theory of music, it is not.

So for me, this new notation fits!

[dsan@mail.com]

My input on this matter will likely not assist you Attila, since I do not use the Roman Numerals; however, I would go with what offers the most flexibility. Which sounds like the second choice.

Since I don't use the numeral chords is there something about the second option that will hinder a persons usability of RC?

I would think anyone versed enough to use Roman Numerals will likely know both methods. So if the second option offers greater opportunity then that's what i will recommend.

Also, you write "Using two different notations would be a bad idea." Why is that? Is this because of coding?

I ask because I would think to give the user a choice of which a method works for him/her will be the ultimate. The whole of RC has been built on the premise of choices to the user.

If it's a coding nightmare then I will agree go the route that works best for the majority and the easiest, quickest for you to implement.

Sorry if this wasn't much help and I hope you get it sorted!

Happy Musiking!
dsan

[musicdevelopments]

Thank you, BlackWinny and dsan for your replies.
I must admit it was not the best idea to indicate the scale notes with roman numerals. The first irresolvable issues came with scales like Major Set, Minor Set, Major+Minor Set that contained more than 7 scale degrees, so a 'V' would mean a completely different chord on the Major scale than on the Major+Minor Set.
It is still not too late to fix a bad decision, I hope.

>Since I don't use the numeral chords is there something about the second option that will hinder a persons usability of RC?

Absolutely not. The second choice would be more logical. Even if you don't use the roman numeral notation, the next update will add 250 new chord progressions (with roman numerals) that you can convert to note names easily.

> "Using two different notations would be a bad idea." Why is that? Is this because of coding?

Yes, it would be a coding nightmare. Having two different notations would be troublesome which I would like to avoid.

Thanks,
Attila

[dsan@mail.com]

I love it when I learn something new. Thank you for the explanations Attila

If having two notations will create the possibility of additional bugs or crashes then I have to say avoid that scenario, certainly.

It sounds like the second choice is the best choice. If this will be easy for you to implement then it sounds like the way to go.

Looking forward to those new chord progressions BTW

While on that subject, how is it coming, the new chord suggestions palette based on current key? Just curious
(Every once in while I get stuck for next chord )

Thanks Attila!

Happy Musiking!
dsan

[tonedef71]

I like Roman numeral notation because it describes the chord relationships and can be applied to any tonality.

For chord progressions that contain both major and minor chords, I prefer the Roman numeral notation that employs the convention of uppercase Roman numerals for Major and Augmented chords, and lowercase Roman numerals for minor and diminished chords.

For example, a chord progression in the relative keys of Eb Major and C minor that ascends through all degrees of the modes; notice that the diminished chord, degree 7 in Eb Major and degree 2 in C minor, is notated with the "degree" symbol (°):

What follows is a short progression in the key of C minor that modulates back and forth between C minor and its parallel mode, C Major:

The i and iv chords designate C minor while I, IV, and V chords designate C Major.

Another example of notation that follows this convention:

[themixtape]

No personal email to me, Attila, regarding this question???

[musicdevelopments]

No personal email to me, Attila, regarding this question???

I wanted to write you, of course. I even mentioned this problem in a previous mail, but now I am really confused. Please, will you share your thoughts?
When you wrote that technically it is bVII for minor scales, I knew that something is really messed up with naming the scale degrees/chords.

[J.F.K.]

There is another notation which always uses the major scale degrees, that is the minor scale would look like:
Im IIdim bIII IVm Vm bVI bVII

I don't doubt that this notation exists, but I've never heard about it. And I must say, that I would find it totally confusing. Using the major scale degrees to notate the chords of the minor scale, what's the point in that? I'm not sure how you want to explain this to a new user.

the current solution simply cannot display chords with an out-of-scale base note.

Why? For the C minor scale the chord Ab is VI and A would be #VI. Where is the problem? If you are not sure how to denominate chords of exotic scales with roman numerals, simply look how Harmony Navigator does it.

[musicdevelopments]

There is another notation which always uses the major scale degrees, that is the minor scale would look like:
Im IIdim bIII IVm Vm bVI bVII

I don't doubt that this notation exists, but I've never heard about it. And I must say, that I would find it totally confusing. Using the major scale degrees to notate the chords of the minor scale, what's the point in that? I'm not sure how you want to explain this to a new user.

You will find this notation all over the net if you google for "minor scale Im IIdim bIII".
It makes a lot of sense because a roman numeral means the same note regardless of the scale used.

Why? For the C minor scale the chord Ab is VI and A would be #VI. Where is the problem?

The problem is that VI is a different note on different scales.
What would be 'VI' on a scale like "Major+Minor Set"?

[J.F.K.]

To my understanding, the roman numerals are not made for having the same numeral for the same notes at different scales. That's simply not their purpose. Everyone knows that the numeral VI means something different for major and minor.

>>What would be 'VI' on a scale like "Major+Minor Set"?<<

I didn't know that scale sets are impemented in RC. Or do you mean a superposition of major and minor into one scale. That actually isn' t a real scale, it's a superposition. The roman numerals can not be applied then.

If you really would have implemented scale sets - meaning a combination of inherently related scales, but only one of these scales can be selected at time - then (and only then) it would make sense, to define one of these scales as the reference scale.

At Harmony Navigator there is for instance a scale set "Minor", which is a combination of the natural, harmonic and melodic minor scales. There by default the natural minor scale is the reference scale and the roman numerals are therefore based on natural minor for the whole scale set, i. e. also for harmonic and melodic minor. This then has a similar effect as your 'solution 2': The roman numerals for one scale can be based on another scale. But at RC you do not have scale sets, right? There are only isolated scales. There this concept makes no sense.

If you really want to implement this solution, then let the user choose between the one or the other at least. I won't use this 'solution 2', that's for sure, as it destroys brain cells.

[Roc77]

I think I see what you're asking. I think(?) If you are implementing scale sets, then as was said Harmony Nav, just adds a space to cover the different notes for the scale degree.

So, there are Roman numerals 1 to 7. If the scale set is Major, Harmonic Major, Melodic Major, there are a total of 9 columns chords but still only seven scale degrees.

Between scale degrees 5 and 6 an extra space (column of chords) is inserted that accommodates the scale with Chords the are Flat or Sharp or Natural depending on the prevailing Key you are in.

But its still scale degree 5 just with 2 columns of chords.

The same thing occurs between Scale degrees 6 and 7 where an extra column is just inserted for chords of scale degree 6 that do not fall into the scale that has been designated to as the dominant scale that is controlling the scale-set.

So, I would say allow for a choice of which scale would be the dominant of the Palette, lets say. Major right. Then allow for the adding of different scales to form the scales set. Major-Minor, Major-Lydian, Major-Locrian etc. Just add a column of the new chords once the second scale is added to the palette.

Having mentioning HN. Its easier for me to get chord progressions out of RC that I really like and I think that's a testament to how well you've programmed it.


You don't have to change or add anything to the Roman Numbers. Set them and forget them.

This book: How Music Really Works has been a great resource for me. Chapter 6 is all about chords and progressions. http://www.howmusicreallyworks.com/Page ... ter_6.html

Attila, I think this (below) will help with your specific dilemma. Its all about the Roman Numeral System and the Nashville Number System

http://www.howmusicreallyworks.com/Page ... 6/6_4.html

The Harmonic Scale
http://www.howmusicreallyworks.com/Page ... html#6.7.5

Harmonic Scales "Chord Progression Chart" for All Keys.
http://www.howmusicreallyworks.com/PGS_ ... _Chart.htm

Btw

Thanks for adding the choice for the default chord length for the chord progression generator

I've seen your time table but I'd like to humbly ask for the midi drum track to be bumped forward, just a basic grid to lay down some drums. For now I just have some drumless compositions. Dragging in wav files as drum loops is not cutting it because they have to loop perfectly or they just skip like scratched vinyl. And there is no time stretching so then I have to settle for a tempo that's not close to what I'm feeling at the time. Then the loop might not be whats called for so then I gotta go search for a loop that fits my needs, I could go on and on so I'll just stop.

[BlackWinny]

I've seen your time table but I'd like to humbly ask for the midi drum track to be bumped forward, just a basic grid to lay down some drums. For now I just have some drumless compositions. Dragging in wav files as drum loops is not cutting it because they have to loop perfectly or they just skip like scratched vinyl. And there is no time stretching so then I have to settle for a tempo that's not close to what I'm feeling at the time. Then the loop might not be whats called for so then I gotta go search for a loop that fits my needs, I could go on and on so I'll just stop.

Nice feature request!
I route it to the "Feature Requests" thread, here. Subscribe to that thread if you're not yet!

[Roc77]

I've seen your time table but I'd like to humbly ask for the midi drum track to be bumped forward, just a basic grid to lay down some drums. For now I just have some drumless compositions. Dragging in wav files as drum loops is not cutting it because they have to loop perfectly or they just skip like scratched vinyl. And there is no time stretching so then I have to settle for a tempo that's not close to what I'm feeling at the time. Then the loop might not be whats called for so then I gotta go search for a loop that fits my needs, I could go on and on so I'll just stop.

Nice feature request!
I route it to the "Feature Requests" thread, here. Subscribe to that thread if you're not yet!

Thanks

[musicdevelopments]

I think I see what you're asking. I think(?) If you are implementing scale sets, then as was said Harmony Nav, just adds a space to cover the different notes for the scale degree.

Excellent reply, thanks, Roc77!
I have to rethink the internal handling of roman numerals now, because chord suggestions, chord progression rules editing, chord progression generating will come in the next update (v2.7) even though it was planned for a later version.

Thank you for the useful links and references.

I have lots of ideas for the drum track, which will be implemented shortly. I am sure it will be quicker and easier than this chord stuff...

Thanks!
Attila