F#min and B harmonic minor relationship?

[brekehan]

I was writing a tune in F#min.

While I was looking for some cool stuff to throw in, I randomly came up with a sequence on my midi keyboard consisting of the notes F# G A# B C# D

The online scale finder tells me that has to be B harmonic minor...

This makes no sense to me, because it sounds good and seems to mesh with the rest of the instruments who are happily playing along in F#min.

Is there a relationship there? Or is it because so many of the notes match and the ones that don't are just being played too subtly to notice?

As far as I can tell the F#min has G# while B harmonic minor has G and
............................F#min has A while B harmonic minor has A#
the rest of the notes match up. I'd expect those two notes to sound really awkward.


Clip:
http://christopherpisz.strangled.net/te ... eclash.mp3

[kurodo]

Is there a relationship there? Or is it because so many of the notes match and the ones that don't are just being played too subtly to notice?

F# minor and B harmonic minor share five notes between them.
That's a pretty strong relationship straight away
The other notes could be thought of colour notes or passing tones.
Psytrance has a lot of this kind of thing going on. (dark and dissonant with minor 2nd clashes)

[fmr]

I was writing a tune in F#min.

While I was looking for some cool stuff to throw in, I randomly came up with a sequence on my midi keyboard consisting of the notes F# G A# B C# D

The online scale finder tells me that has to be B harmonic minor...

This makes no sense to me, because it sounds good and seems to mesh with the rest of the instruments who are happily playing along in F#min.

Is there a relationship there? Or is it because so many of the notes match and the ones that don't are just being played too subtly to notice?

As far as I can tell the F#min has G# while B harmonic minor has G and
............................F#min has A while B harmonic minor has A#
the rest of the notes match up. I'd expect those two notes to sound really awkward.


Clip:
http://christopherpisz.strangled.net/te ... eclash.mp3

G doesn't belong to F# minor but belongs to B minor. Keys which tonic is at the distance of a perfect fifth above or below are neighbour keys, which means they just differ one note from each other. In this case, that note is precisely the G.

[kurodo]

G doesn't belong to F# minor but belongs to B minor. Keys which tonic is at the distance of a perfect fifth above or below are neighbour keys, which means they just differ one note from each other. In this case, that note is precisely the G.

As in the Circle of fifths.
Thought I'd include this for brekehan for the visual relationship.

[fmr]

In this, the minor keys are in smaller letters in the inside circle, while the Major relative keys are in bigger letters in the outside circle. The key signature is shared between them (Major and minor keys that share the same key signature are called relative). Beware thoug that usually the minor keys have an extra different note, the leading tone (seventh degree), which is noted as an occuring accident.

[MadBrain]

F# G A# B C# D

That's looks like either:
- Phrygian dominant (F# G A# B C# D E) aka "hijaz" in Arabic music (+other confusing guitar scale book names)
- "Double harmonic major" (F# G A# B C# D E#) aka "hijaz kar" (+other confusing guitar scale book names)

[fmr]

F# G A# B C# D

That's looks like either:
- Phrygian dominant (F# G A# B C# D E) aka "hijaz" in Arabic music (+other confusing guitar scale book names)
- "Double harmonic major" (F# G A# B C# D E#) aka "hijaz kar" (+other confusing guitar scale book names)

Or B minor?

[MadBrain]

F# G A# B C# D

That's looks like either:
- Phrygian dominant (F# G A# B C# D E) aka "hijaz" in Arabic music (+other confusing guitar scale book names)
- "Double harmonic major" (F# G A# B C# D E#) aka "hijaz kar" (+other confusing guitar scale book names)

Or B minor?

Yes, if the unwritten assumption that the scale is given starting with the root key turns out to be false.

[kurodo]

F# G A# B C# D

That's looks like either:
- Phrygian dominant (F# G A# B C# D E) aka "hijaz" in Arabic music (+other confusing guitar scale book names)
- "Double harmonic major" (F# G A# B C# D E#) aka "hijaz kar" (+other confusing guitar scale book names)

Or B minor?

Yes, if the unwritten assumption that the scale is given starting with the root key turns out to be false.

Surely you guys mean B Harmonic minor?
How about the F# Spanish Gypsy Scale?
1,b2,b3,4,5,b6,b7

[fmr]

F# G A# B C# D

That's looks like either:
- Phrygian dominant (F# G A# B C# D E) aka "hijaz" in Arabic music (+other confusing guitar scale book names)
- "Double harmonic major" (F# G A# B C# D E#) aka "hijaz kar" (+other confusing guitar scale book names)

Or B minor?

Yes, if the unwritten assumption that the scale is given starting with the root key turns out to be false.

Surely you guys mean B Harmonic minor?
How about the F# Spanish Gypsy Scale?
1,b2,b3,4,5,b6,b7

Oh, come on... It can be a myriad of things, but usually the simplest answer is the one. Without the musical context, and assuming this will be harmonized within the western tonal harmony, it will not be anything else. Why complicate?

And there is only one minor - those things you were taught about the natural minor, harmonic minor and melodic minor are all rubbish. The minor is the minor, period. The raised VII (leading tone) is an alteration due to the use of classical western harmony (the minor is what remains today from the first church mode), and the melodic form was used to avoid the augmented second, mainly in the baroque. Again, keep it simple.

[kurodo]

Oh, come on... It can be a myriad of things, but usually the simplest answer is the one. Without the musical context, and assuming this will be harmonized within the western tonal harmony, it will not be anything else. Why complicate?

Fair enough but somehow B harmonic minor sounds too classical for a Goa or Psytrance track.
I think I prefer F# Phrygian dominant or F# Spanish Gypsy as it sounds more exotic.
Ultimately I'll leave it to the composer to make that decision though, its not for me to tell him.

And there is only one minor - those things you were taught about the natural minor, harmonic minor and melodic minor are all rubbish. The minor is the minor, period. The raised VII (leading tone) is an alteration due to the use of classical western harmony (the minor is what remains today from the first church mode), and the melodic form was used to avoid the augmented second, mainly in the baroque. Again, keep it simple.

I am afraid I am going to have to agree to disagree even though I know exactly where you are coming from.
If I ask someone to write a melody in B harmonic minor that's exactly what I will expect, not some improvisation built around what scale they think I want.
For this reason I think its important to at least acknowledge the differences and not lump all the minor scales under one hood.

[MadBrain]

[Stuff...]

Oh, come on... It can be a myriad of things, but usually the simplest answer is the one. Without the musical context, and assuming this will be harmonized within the western tonal harmony, it will not be anything else. Why complicate?

And there is only one minor - those things you were taught about the natural minor, harmonic minor and melodic minor are all rubbish. The minor is the minor, period. The raised VII (leading tone) is an alteration due to the use of classical western harmony (the minor is what remains today from the first church mode), and the melodic form was used to avoid the augmented second, mainly in the baroque. Again, keep it simple.

True.

Going by audio clip in the original post, it's definitely in F#. And you can clearly hear the b2 and the 3. So in this case, it is phrygian dominant.

[brekehan]

Going by audio clip in the original post, it's definitely in F#. And you can clearly hear the b2 and the 3. So in this case, it is phrygian dominant.

I think its true. Picked up the guitar, looked up the scale, and that's the sound and the mood.

[kurodo]

Going by audio clip in the original post, it's definitely in F#. And you can clearly hear the b2 and the 3. So in this case, it is phrygian dominant.

I think its true. Picked up the guitar, looked up the scale, and that's the sound and the mood.

So be it!
F# Phrygian Dominant it is then.
Let us know when you've finished it.