Observations and questions about fanboyism/hate patterns in this and other foums

[cfanyc]

Warning: this may be misunderstood as an "equal offender" thread starter
but the intent is to only improve the quality of information exchange
in this and similar forums. The language i use is in the tradition of comedic satire. No intend to offend or hurt anyone's feelings.

Here we go:

I have ben reading kvr, and similar forums for years and started posting
only recently in part due to increased frustration with rampant
fanboyism and its polar opposite, hate posting.

This is becoming an obstacle to both the informativeness
and civility of discussion, making exchange of reliable information
increasingly difficult.

There are distinct patterns and known dominant perpetrators/
repeat offenders. For example,

1. The fanboys who love a product or manufacturer because it is free or
priced low and perhaps cannot afford a professional grade tool. That prompts them to declare the product also better in quality than every other
offering in the market. Major perpetrator
popping up in every single thread mentioning the word "reverb"
are the fanboys of a certain range of reverbs that
sell for 50 bucks which makes them the object of never ending praise
regradles of quality, merits of alternatives, intended uses, documented problems and so on.

2. The reverse category of haters of higher priced products. Major perpetrator in the soft synth world are the haters of a specific industry standard synthesizer because it has the audacity to be priced at $500. The attacks are remarkably consistent in claiming that said product is
"not a real synth, just a rompler" Meanwhile every profesional studio is using it
to create unque sounds that have appeared in countless song and film productions and every major and minor industry award committee has given it top technical awards.

3. The haters of dongles and other strong anti piracy protection
schemes. Regardless of the topic of discussion, exciting characteristics
of product discussed etc, they will pop in to announce that "dongle, no buy", "dongle, no demo" etc. This category is almost exclusively dominated by the anti-ilok crowd with challenge-response being a distant second.

4. The fanboys of a certain european dynamic convolution based product
that can do eq, compression, console emulation etc. This one has many of
the characteristics of a cult. It revolves around the figure of the leader who not only does all the r&d and coding himself but is present on every discussion board 24/7 globally, to debate and enlighten the crowds and give promises about what the future versions of the product will do. The faithful share the cosmic beliefs that algorithmic plugins cannot match the sonic nirvana of convolution. That generally unmeasurable entities that do not exist in audio engineering training books and courses, such as "3D sound", "hearing the phase", "sound that is alive" etc are defining and irrefutable advantages. They believe that a competing company figurehead (and his fanboys) are the anti-Christ and highjack his threads with vigor. They buy everything produced by the leader, in pre sale and without demos, at a rate of one new product/month. Meanwhile the products are shockingly hard to authorize and configure, have interface problems,require an average computer to run a couple of iinstances, have no presets, violate intellectual property of others on a massive scale and are offered based on a pricing doctrine that should make any free market economist tear their degree and eat the pieces raw and unseasoned.

5. The anti Waves crowd. This is mostly a group of historians that
will grab the opportunity to hijack every single thread discussing
a waves product, or a waves like product, or a product competing to a waves product, or a product that has a 6 degree separation with waves, about the real and imagined marketing trangressions of Waves, 3, 5, or 10 years ago.
The much smaller (but dynamic and highy promising) non historian contigent of this Waves hater category mostly specializes on real time installation problems live reporting. That is for every mispelled directory name, installer hickup that lasted more than 20 cpu cycles, os version mismatch, and other normal tech support query, they will compelled to start a thread announcing the end of the world as we know it due to Waves's malevolance or ineptitude while offering a near real time update status of their installation or running issues.

6. And of course the grand-daddy of all, the pc vs mac debaters. The beauty
of this is twofold. On one hand it applies to every discussion. On the other hand the ecosystem has a double whammy engine of simultanous
love and hate. Love macs/hate pcs or hate macs/love pcs? Maybe both (the sophisticates), or none (the enlightened). There is room for all in this self contained but expanding universe of wasted time. So that nobody gets bored, knockoffs involving linux or tablets were quickly formed and carry the flag to the future.

There are more but I will stop here. Serious questions for all:

What can be done to avoid the perils of hate posting or fanboyism?
Is is it somehow just hamless entertainment?
How can we exchange subjective opinion about personal tastes
without ending up sound llike fanatics?
How can we offer honest criticism without be categorized as haters?
How can we praise our beloved tools even with great enthusiasm, without degenerating to a taliban mentality of intolerance to other viewpoints?


========
Dislosures
1. I do not have financial interests in any of the discussed products, their competitors, or the music technology industry broadly.
2. I own and use products in both sides of the fence in every category discussed above.

[inkwarp]

i fit none of these critereria.
just don't read those posts.. you seem experienced enough to spot them so why get drawn in if it pisses you off.
i only have one rule and that is, don't talk about things you know nothing about. it just makes you look like a plank.

[Shalotta]

Hahahaha, funny, I had to giggle several times ...

Well, it`s close to Christmas time again and the time for New Year's resolutions,
are we able to change something for the sake of a bettter togetherness ?
Let`s see ...

Here are the commandments for the 21st century for KVR users,
may this become a radiant and luminous role model for everyone here
and for other forums around the globe:

As an inspiration, I start with two points, whats would be yours ?

1. Do read and understand what is written and exclusively relate to that context,
do not abuse a forum for verbal ejaculations, product placement, ego polishing
and all the dirty tricks you are able to think of.

2. Do at all events respect the integrity of individuals,
never yank off a topic and it`s content to a personal level.
Go to a level of PM`s if you think you have an open emotional ticket with someone.

Warning: this may be misunderstood as an "equal offender" thread starter
but the intent is to only improve the quality of information exchange
in this and similar forums. The language i use is in the tradition of comedic satire. No intend to offend or hurt anyone's feelings.

Here we go:

I have ben reading kvr, and similar forums for years and started posting
only recently in part due to increased frustration with rampant
fanboyism and its polar opposite, hate posting.

This is becoming an obstacle to both the informativeness
and civility of discussion, making exchange of reliable information
increasingly difficult.

There are distinct patterns and known dominant perpetrators/
repeat offenders. For example,

1. The fanboys who love a product or manufacturer because it is free or
priced low and perhaps cannot afford a professional grade tool. That prompts them to declare the product also better in quality than every other
offering in the market. Major perpetrator
popping up in every single thread mentioning the word "reverb"
are the fanboys of a certain range of reverbs that
sell for 50 bucks which makes them the object of never ending praise
regradles of quality, merits of alternatives, intended uses, documented problems and so on.

2. The reverse category of haters of higher priced products. Major perpetrator in the soft synth world are the haters of a specific industry standard synthesizer because it has the audacity to be priced at $500. The attacks are remarkably consistent in claiming that said product is
"not a real synth, just a rompler" Meanwhile every profesional studio is using it
to create unque sounds that have appeared in countless song and film productions and every major and minor industry award committee has given it top technical awards.

3. The haters of dongles and other strong anti piracy protection
schemes. Regardless of the topic of discussion, exciting characteristics
of product discussed etc, they will pop in to announce that "dongle, no buy", "dongle, no demo" etc. This category is almost exclusively dominated by the anti-ilok crowd with challenge-response being a distant second.

4. The fanboys of a certain european dynamic convolution based product
that can do eq, compression, console emulation etc. This one has many of
the characteristics of a cult. It revolves around the figure of the leader who not only does all the r&d and coding himself but is present on every discussion board 24/7 globally, to debate and enlighten the crowds and give promises about what the future versions of the product will do. The faithful share the cosmic beliefs that algorithmic plugins cannot match the sonic nirvana of convolution. That generally unmeasurable entities that do not exist in audio engineering training books and courses, such as "3D sound", "hearing the phase", "sound that is alive" etc are defining and irrefutable advantages. They believe that a competing company figurehead (and his fanboys) are the anti-Christ and highjack his threads with vigor. They buy everything produced by the leader, in pre sale and without demos, at a rate of one new product/month. Meanwhile the products are shockingly hard to authorize and configure, have interface problems,require an average computer to run a couple of iinstances, have no presets, violate intellectual property of others on a massive scale and are offered based on a pricing doctrine that should make any free market economist tear their degree and eat the pieces raw and unseasoned.

5. The anti Waves crowd. This is mostly a group of historians that
will grab the opportunity to hijack every single thread discussing
a waves product, or a waves like product, or a product competing to a waves product, or a product that has a 6 degree separation with waves, about the real and imagined marketing trangressions of Waves, 3, 5, or 10 years ago.
The much smaller (but dynamic and highy promising) non historian contigent of this Waves hater category mostly specializes on real time installation problems live reporting. That is for every mispelled directory name, installer hickup that lasted more than 20 cpu cycles, os version mismatch, and other normal tech support query, they will compelled to start a thread announcing the end of the world as we know it due to Waves's malevolance or ineptitude while offering a near real time update status of their installation or running issues.

6. And of course the grand-daddy of all, the pc vs mac debaters. The beauty
of this is twofold. On one hand it applies to every discussion. On the other hand the ecosystem has a double whammy engine of simultanous
love and hate. Love macs/hate pcs or hate macs/love pcs? Maybe both (the sophisticates), or none (the enlightened). There is room for all in this self contained but expanding universe of wasted time. So that nobody gets bored, knockoffs involving linux or tablets were quickly formed and carry the flag to the future.

There are more but I will stop here. Serious questions for all:

What can be done to avoid the perils of hate posting or fanboyism?
Is is it somehow just hamless entertainment?
How can we exchange subjective opinion about personal tastes
without ending up sound llike fanatics?
How can we offer honest criticism without be categorized as haters?
How can we praise our beloved tools even with great enthusiasm, without degenerating to a taliban mentality of intolerance to other viewpoints?


========
Dislosures
1. I do not have financial interests in any of the discussed products, their competitors, or the music technology industry broadly.
2. I own and use products in both sides of the fence in every category discussed above.

[kenobi77]

It's something I've thought about before but in short I don't think you can.

I think inkwarp's point is the only way forward. In some threads there are two parallel discussions occurring, one an argument and the other the actual topic. i find myself stepping over the irrelevant post.

Sometimes people can get quite blinkered with their views and strong with their wording, but I've never seen something that I'd consider deliberate trolling (sometimes borderline though).

One thing that could work are if those devs which are generally viewed favourable intervene in some of the anti-the-other-guy threads. They are the ppl with influence, but then I think why should they? It would take away vital time and focus from what they are supposed be doing, and lets be honest why talk yourself out of a potential sale.

The sad fact is the opinions of ppl will have an effect on how these companies and products are viewed, and ultimately effect their sales.

Having said that this forum is pretty good compared to others, for example the Slate VMR thread was incredibly un-hyped and fair in it's responses compared with elsewhere

I think a way we can help with the objectivity is the posting of before / after audio examples alongside opinions where possible.

[cfanyc]

i fit none of these critereria.
just don't read those posts.. you seem experienced enough to spot them so why get drawn in if it pisses you off.
i only have one rule and that is, don't talk about things you know nothing about. it just makes you look like a plank.

Not pissed. It is a signal to noise ratio problem.

if you go to a thread of interest and there are 20 hate and 10 fanboyish posts
for every 1 factual or balanced post, the composition of the threads are mostly
noise and everyone loses their time...

[cfanyc]

It's something I've thought about before but in short I don't think you can.
I've never seen something that I'd consider deliberate trolling (sometimes borderline though).

Having said that this forum is pretty good compared to others,

I think a way we can help with the objectivity is the posting of before / after audio examples alongside opinions where possible.

I agree with all 3 points.

I cannot see how ignoring the fan/hate posts is a good solution. They are simply too many, overwhelm the
discussions and they stir the threads to nowhere. They breed a "bias over facts" culture and are too
many to just filter efficiently.

[cfanyc]

Hahahaha, funny, I had to giggle several times ...

As an inspiration, I start with two points, whats would be yours ?

1. Do read and understand what is written and exclusively relate to that context,
do not abuse a forum for verbal ejaculations, product placement, ego polishing
and all the dirty tricks you are able to think of.

2. Do at all events respect the integrity of individuals,
never yank off a topic and it`s content to a personal level.
Go to a level of PM`s if you think you have an open emotional ticket with someone.

very well said, totally make sense.

[camsr]

Could this decreasing SNR be related to the usage of Dragon NaturalySpeaking for responding to forum posts?
"Yeah I have something to say about that! Thankfully I won't have to type it!"

[SODDI]

Frankly, the OP's whole post reeks of that fanboys vs. haters fake dichotomy - in a passive-aggressive way, of course.

He doesn't want to discuss this, he wants people to validate his feelings.

"Industry standard" my ass. What industry? Whose standards?

[trimph1]

Yeah, it does seem to be that.

But, then again, if a Dev posts some announcement of an updated piece of software or such I guess one kind of expects that to happen.

[ariston]

Warning: this may be misunderstood as an "equal offender" thread starter

No need to read beyond this sentence. The OP is just as bad as anything it indicts. But, just for the sake of being constructive:

Solution: make everyone here take a course in nonviolent communication, Vipassana and Zen meditation, test them for sins of enlightenment, and then shoot those that don't pass.

Another solution: only let robots post.

Another another solution: get off your high horse. You're just as biased as the rest of us little people.

Take your pick.

[cfanyc]

delete

[cfanyc]

delete

[ariston]

(on second thought forget offering advice on the ad hominem attacks part because I think you need
some guidance there too).

Gee whiz, it took "Mr. Moral Majority" just a few posts to invalidate his entire position. What a surprise...

[trimph1]

(on second thought forget offering advice on the ad hominem attacks part because I think you need
some guidance there too).

Gee whiz, it took "Mr. Moral Majority" just a few posts to invalidate his entire position. What a surprise...

So typical.

In the world of all or nothing this will happen. Some refer to it as hypocrisy.