KVR Audio

golemus · Post by **golemus** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 5:46 pm

How do you recognize if tune is in the key of amin or cmaj as both of them have same notes?

Here are some alternatives:
1. Most common note of tune defines its key (is it a or c).

2. First and last note of melodic phrases defines its key.

3. Most common bassline note defines its key

valerian_777 · Post by **valerian_777** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 6:12 pm

Thats not exactly the truth since Amin have the notes A C E and Cmaj have the notes C E G.

You probably meant they have the same scale (only the white keys = A B C D E F G).

Tricky-Loops · Post by **Tricky-Loops** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 6:19 pm

valerian_777 wrote:Thats not exactly the truth since Amin have the notes A C E and Cmaj have the notes C E G.

The root (chord) is different. But there can be melodies in (the scales of) Amin or Cmaj sharing the same notes...

chris.r · Post by **chris.r** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 6:24 pm

A major rule is to look at the ending chord.

valerian_777 · Post by **valerian_777** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 6:24 pm

Tricky-Loops wrote:
valerian_777 wrote:Thats not exactly the truth since Amin have the notes A C E and Cmaj have the notes C E G.
The root (chord) is different. But there can be melodies in (the scales of) Amin or Cmaj sharing the same notes...

Thats what i already said: both chords share the same scale but you cut the quote.

sjm · Post by **sjm** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 6:30 pm

None of the above, it's more about where the piece of music feels at "home". This is often - but not exclusively - clear from the first and/or last harmonies/chords in the piece. Many songs will start on the I or i and look to return to it, particularly from a V or v.

In other words, if you have song that has a Bb in the key signature and otherwise all naturals, and it starts with a chord made up of D F A, it's most likely in D minor, not F major. Especially if the song concentrates on Dm Gm and Am chords as opposed to F Bb and C chords (3 chord trick).

Of course, not every song starts with the I/i chord and songs can change key signatures halfway through - even going from i to I or vice versa (e.g. Lou Reed's perfect day switches between A minor and A major from verse to chorus).

The notes in the melody are less useful as a guideline, as it's perfectly common for a songs in C major/A minor to start with an E note, for example, or for a song in A minor to begin the melody with a C. (Or any other note for that matter.)

I'm sure there will be others who can add a lot more to this discussion along shortly

But I'd say that essentially you should be able to feel where the I or i is from listening to the music in most cases.

@valerian, a key and chords are not the same thing, I think you have misunderstood the OP.

valerian_777 · Post by **valerian_777** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 6:36 pm

sjm wrote:@valerian, a key and chords are not the same thing, I think you have misunderstood the OP.

No, the thing is if you named a scale after Amin or Cmaj you already determinate it so the question itfself is "wrong".

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 7:19 pm

"Amin have the notes A C E and Cmaj have the notes C E G." That brings nothing to bear on 'what key'.

Also, A minor and C major in terms of scales ≠ the same scale. That is a similar problem as 'how do you determine key'. Key of A [minor] has the tonic A. Key of C has the tonic C. Same with a scale. There are seven modes to any seven note scale; the names are meaningful names as they belong to the tonic with that letter name.

sjm · Post by **sjm** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 8:41 pm

valerian_777 wrote: No, the thing is if you named a scale after Amin or Cmaj, you already determinate it, so the question itself is "wrong".

Previously you wrote:

valerian_777 wrote:Thats not exactly the truth since Amin has the notes A C E and Cmaj has the notes C E G.

Which describes the chords of A minor (A C E) and C major (C E G). But the OP never asked about chords:

golemus wrote: How do you recognize if tune is in the key of amin or cmaj as both of them have same notes?

valerian_777 · Post by **valerian_777** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 10:02 pm

sjm wrote:
valerian_777 wrote: No, the thing is if you named a scale after Amin or Cmaj, you already determinate it, so the question itself is "wrong".
Previously you wrote:
valerian_777 wrote:Thats not exactly the truth since Amin has the notes A C E and Cmaj has the notes C E G.
Which describes the chords of A minor (A C E) and C major (C E G). But the OP never asked about chords:
golemus wrote: How do you recognize if tune is in the key of amin or cmaj as both of them have same notes?

No, actually OP asked: How do you recognize if tune is in the key of amin or cmaj as both of them have same notes?

Since the scale is the same for both chords the whole question leave to the chords alone. Feel free to talk about the (same) scale but i'm afraid it isn't of much help for OP's original question.

Baxter · Post by **Baxter** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 10:16 pm

Major and minor keys tend to have different emotional qualities. Major keys might be described as being happier, lighter or more "up-beat" while minor keys might be described as darker or sadder. So, ask yourself which of these predominates. If the song is mostly light and happy, then you might call it C maj. If it is mostly sad or dark, then a min might be more appropriate. This may not be all that easy to determine with great certainty, since it is common for songs to be a mixture of the two. In classical music, it is common to use the key / quality that the piece begins in.

Baxter

sjm · Post by **sjm** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 10:25 pm

valerian_777 wrote:No, actually OP asked: How do you recognize if tune is in the key of amin or cmaj as both of them have same notes?

Since the scale is the same for both chords the whole question leave to the chords alone. Feel free to talk about the (same) scale but i'm afraid it isn't of much help for OP's original question.

I'm sorry but the bolded bit makes no sense to me.

I'm pretty sure the OP is simply asking, "how do I know if a piece is in A minor or in C major, as the key signatures are identical?"

Which has nothing to do with "scales for chords" or what notes make up a chord. A chord is not a scale nor a key. The A minor the OP is talking about is A B C D E F G, which is A natural minor; not A C E, which is the chord of A minor.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 10:33 pm

valerian_777 wrote:<How do you recognize if tune is in the key of amin or cmaj as both of them have same notes?>

Since the scale is the same for both chords the whole question leave to the chords alone. Feel free to talk about the (same) scale but i'm afraid it isn't of much help for OP's original question.

No, that doesn't work per se. The scale is the same, and triads are built through the same mechanism in any case, so [at least on paper, so far] the chords are the same as well. There is one simple answer, when A or when C is the tonic, the home. In which case Am or C is the i, or I chord.

There would be various factors in what happened to create that impression. It could have no chords at all and be true, it could be how the 'scalar material' is used to create that impression. It could be the rhythmic way in which chords are used that make Am or C clearly the 'one'; or both in agreement or to various degrees.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 10:36 pm

valerian_777 wrote: Feel free to talk about the (same) scale .

A minor and C major are just NOT the same scale. There is no 'free to talk about it', it's just not a good or useful statement.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 10:40 pm

Baxter wrote:Major and minor keys tend to have different emotional qualities. Major keys might be described as being happier, lighter or more "up-beat" while minor keys might be described as darker or sadder. So, ask yourself which of these predominates. If the song is mostly light and happy, then you might call it C maj. If it is mostly sad or dark, then a min might be more appropriate.

This is only some suggestive, subjective stuff. *A minor*, *C major* will be true or not true. There may be some ambiguity in a moment but we have to have an objective statement at some point. And 'happy = major' doesn't have to be true.

MAJOR: