Producing jazz trio out of the box

[dewgong]

Im facing a major dilemma. Im trying to produce an electric piano trio track but the tools I have at my disposal are woeful. Im using Tension for bass and Electric for Keys but they sound sterile to me.

How realistic is the idea of constructing a jazz trio using virtual instruments?

[dewgong]

Anyone? This is so critical because im grappling with a lack of energy in my mixes and using instruments that lack the nuance of the real thing could make it impossible for me to bring my tracks into focus.

[Aloysius]

It's realistic imho. If you know what instruments you're looking for, then you could use Google to find alternatives. Or, do you want an exhaustive list of Virtual Instruments? There are so many keys for Kontakt, or from AAS, or Toontrack, or ... Do you want Jazz Drum Loops or a Virtual Instrument? For something so critical, you seem to have done little or no investigation.

When you say ''out of the box'', does that mean you're looking for Hardware?

[She Changed Her Mind]

Band in a box, I thought.

[Vospi]

Be very careful and tasteful with swing and velocity. That will squeeze a lot of life from every instrument you can imagine.

[dewgong]

Ah im playing the instruments myself. I need to get Kontakt really as the Rickenbacker and Scarbee keys are brain meltingly good compared to electric and tension. Im worried that it will sound like a trio of synthesised instruments in which case there's no point really unless I find a way to showcase that very quality

[dewgong]

It's realistic imho. If you know what instruments you're looking for, then you could use Google to find alternatives. Or, do you want an exhaustive list of Virtual Instruments? There are so many keys for Kontakt, or from AAS, or Toontrack, or ... Do you want Jazz Drum Loops or a Virtual Instrument? For something so critical, you seem to have done little or no investigation.

When you say ''out of the box'', does that mean you're looking for Hardware?

Scarbee seems to be the most realistic emulation. Im wondering whether I should invest in a drum plugin too. Using samples can work but there are issues with tuning and articulation that a dedicated drumkit simulation would reduce

[BERFAB]

Jazz trio is one of my favorite things, and I do it virtually all the time. I use both acoustic piano and Rhodes/Whirly, and sometimes I'll alternate them in the same track.

If you don't mind 32 bit plugs, try the free Mr. Ray, and use the 'mellow' patch for the Rhodes. Lots of warmth and very playable. Adjust the built in reverb to taste.

After I went x64, I used the Scarbee instrument to replace Mr. Ray on the Rhodes, but it took a lot of tweaking to get what I wanted.

I've since moved on a bit further, and the 'Suitcase' patch in Halion 5/HalionSonic 2 is what I use. I think Sampletank 3 might also have something comparable. If you don't have access to any of these, get your best Rhodes instrument out and fiddle with the Reverb and EQ. EQ should be on the bright side, and Reverb should be present without being muddy.

For the bass, I have had good luck with just about any upright acoustic bass patch. Even synths tend to emulate this pretty well because of the fast attack and relatively short sustain (FM8 has a great acoustic bass patch, as does Morphine and Dim Pro). I don't think the Scarbee Ricky is going to get you there, though.

For the drums, brushes are probably the best, but not essential. XLN's Addictive Drums has two jazz packs that I'm aware of, one with sticks and one with brushes. The included MIDI files cover quite a bit of ground to get you going.

Good luck.

Cheers
-B

[tradivoro]

Hi dewgong, I don't know if you are doing this project for the sake of playing everything yourself and accomplishing the sound with your hands. But if you're doing this because you need to meet a deadline or project, look at PG Music's band in a box. You could generate super realistic jazz tracks in seconds, no joke. You could play over it, or have the system generate solos for your as well. Just a head's up.

[dewgong]

Jazz trio is one of my favorite things, and I do it virtually all the time. I use both acoustic piano and Rhodes/Whirly, and sometimes I'll alternate them in the same track.

If you don't mind 32 bit plugs, try the free Mr. Ray, and use the 'mellow' patch for the Rhodes. Lots of warmth and very playable. Adjust the built in reverb to taste.

After I went x64, I used the Scarbee instrument to replace Mr. Ray on the Rhodes, but it took a lot of tweaking to get what I wanted.

I've since moved on a bit further, and the 'Suitcase' patch in Halion 5/HalionSonic 2 is what I use. I think Sampletank 3 might also have something comparable. If you don't have access to any of these, get your best Rhodes instrument out and fiddle with the Reverb and EQ. EQ should be on the bright side, and Reverb should be present without being muddy.

For the bass, I have had good luck with just about any upright acoustic bass patch. Even synths tend to emulate this pretty well because of the fast attack and relatively short sustain (FM8 has a great acoustic bass patch, as does Morphine and Dim Pro). I don't think the Scarbee Ricky is going to get you there, though.

For the drums, brushes are probably the best, but not essential. XLN's Addictive Drums has two jazz packs that I'm aware of, one with sticks and one with brushes. The included MIDI files cover quite a bit of ground to get you going.

Good luck.

Cheers
-B

I've found scarbee to be absolutely excellent but strangely enough when I do a side by side comparison with electric they are about the same in terms of musicality. By this I mean that electric allows you to modify the tone of the instrument in such detail that even if it isnt a faithful rendering of the wurly or suitcase it still has alot to offer. Scarbee has peerless tone and subtlety but just doesnt let you get inside the machine in the same way.

Their Rickenbacker is absolutely out of this world however. Tape saturation cabinets bridge modifications preamplification compression saturation. It's a stunning instrument and its going to be my go to bass instrument for a while I think. There are some truly potent distorted models too (scooped out is nice).

I have found that Scarbee's instruments dont sit in the mix as well as i'd like. This could be because I played the parts in electric and transferred the midi over though.

[BERFAB]

Jazz trio is one of my favorite things, and I do it virtually all the time. I use both acoustic piano and Rhodes/Whirly, and sometimes I'll alternate them in the same track.

If you don't mind 32 bit plugs, try the free Mr. Ray, and use the 'mellow' patch for the Rhodes. Lots of warmth and very playable. Adjust the built in reverb to taste.

After I went x64, I used the Scarbee instrument to replace Mr. Ray on the Rhodes, but it took a lot of tweaking to get what I wanted.

I've since moved on a bit further, and the 'Suitcase' patch in Halion 5/HalionSonic 2 is what I use. I think Sampletank 3 might also have something comparable. If you don't have access to any of these, get your best Rhodes instrument out and fiddle with the Reverb and EQ. EQ should be on the bright side, and Reverb should be present without being muddy.

For the bass, I have had good luck with just about any upright acoustic bass patch. Even synths tend to emulate this pretty well because of the fast attack and relatively short sustain (FM8 has a great acoustic bass patch, as does Morphine and Dim Pro). I don't think the Scarbee Ricky is going to get you there, though.

For the drums, brushes are probably the best, but not essential. XLN's Addictive Drums has two jazz packs that I'm aware of, one with sticks and one with brushes. The included MIDI files cover quite a bit of ground to get you going.

Good luck.

Cheers
-B

I've found scarbee to be absolutely excellent but strangely enough when I do a side by side comparison with electric they are about the same in terms of musicality. By this I mean that electric allows you to modify the tone of the instrument in such detail that even if it isnt a faithful rendering of the wurly or suitcase it still has alot to offer. Scarbee has peerless tone and subtlety but just doesnt let you get inside the machine in the same way.

Their Rickenbacker is absolutely out of this world however. Tape saturation cabinets bridge modifications preamplification compression saturation. It's a stunning instrument and its going to be my go to bass instrument for a while I think. There are some truly potent distorted models too (scooped out is nice).

I have found that Scarbee's instruments dont sit in the mix as well as i'd like. This could be because I played the parts in electric and transferred the midi over though.

Scarbee's stuff IS excellent. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I still have the Scarbee Rhodes patch that I made all set up, but it is not as close to the sound in my head that the other alternatives I mentioned. [BTW, the MR. RAY instrument was all modelled, IIRC, not sampled, FWIW.]

As for the Ricky bass, again, excellent rendition of a Ricky. But the classic trio (at least the way Bill Evans did it, though he didn't play a Rhodes) is usually an upright acoustic. And there are some easy ways to get that sound, as mentioned.

Because of the sparse nature of the trio sound, the overall mix can be tricky. Optimally, you want everything to sound like it's coming from the same room ambience.

-B

[dewgong]

Jazz trio is one of my favorite things, and I do it virtually all the time. I use both acoustic piano and Rhodes/Whirly, and sometimes I'll alternate them in the same track.

If you don't mind 32 bit plugs, try the free Mr. Ray, and use the 'mellow' patch for the Rhodes. Lots of warmth and very playable. Adjust the built in reverb to taste.

After I went x64, I used the Scarbee instrument to replace Mr. Ray on the Rhodes, but it took a lot of tweaking to get what I wanted.

I've since moved on a bit further, and the 'Suitcase' patch in Halion 5/HalionSonic 2 is what I use. I think Sampletank 3 might also have something comparable. If you don't have access to any of these, get your best Rhodes instrument out and fiddle with the Reverb and EQ. EQ should be on the bright side, and Reverb should be present without being muddy.

For the bass, I have had good luck with just about any upright acoustic bass patch. Even synths tend to emulate this pretty well because of the fast attack and relatively short sustain (FM8 has a great acoustic bass patch, as does Morphine and Dim Pro). I don't think the Scarbee Ricky is going to get you there, though.

For the drums, brushes are probably the best, but not essential. XLN's Addictive Drums has two jazz packs that I'm aware of, one with sticks and one with brushes. The included MIDI files cover quite a bit of ground to get you going.

Good luck.

Cheers
-B

I've found scarbee to be absolutely excellent but strangely enough when I do a side by side comparison with electric they are about the same in terms of musicality. By this I mean that electric allows you to modify the tone of the instrument in such detail that even if it isnt a faithful rendering of the wurly or suitcase it still has alot to offer. Scarbee has peerless tone and subtlety but just doesnt let you get inside the machine in the same way.

Their Rickenbacker is absolutely out of this world however. Tape saturation cabinets bridge modifications preamplification compression saturation. It's a stunning instrument and its going to be my go to bass instrument for a while I think. There are some truly potent distorted models too (scooped out is nice).

I have found that Scarbee's instruments dont sit in the mix as well as i'd like. This could be because I played the parts in electric and transferred the midi over though.

Scarbee's stuff IS excellent. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I still have the Scarbee Rhodes patch that I made all set up, but it is not as close to the sound in my head that the other alternatives I mentioned. [BTW, the MR. RAY instrument was all modelled, IIRC, not sampled, FWIW.]

As for the Ricky bass, again, excellent rendition of a Ricky. But the classic trio (at least the way Bill Evans did it, though he didn't play a Rhodes) is usually an upright acoustic. And there are some easy ways to get that sound, as mentioned.

Because of the sparse nature of the trio sound, the overall mix can be tricky. Optimally, you want everything to sound like it's coming from the same room ambience.

-B

Convolution reverb as a send effect could accomplish the ambience. Some glue compression would also work wonders I imagine. Im not sure how to pan though. I heard a Bebop recording years ago that had pianos panned hard right for instance! How do you pan things and what's your stereo image like with trios?

I quite like the idea of a more contemporary jazz trio because im trying to bring in electronic fx and synthesised sounds into the mix. I think that Joe Zawinul plays a Roland ARP on one of the Weather Report albums and there's always the Canterbury Scene! It can be done... just not easily

[Gonga]

My favorite bass vst is Trillian. You could spend months practicing Trillian. Tons of expression if you can master the keyswitching, or use velocity, etc. to trigger the multisample changes.

Jazz is about playing: improvisation, interaction, elastic rhythm, expressive timbre, inflection and pitch-bending, etc. You can't do jazz if you're not a good player, and forget about programming jazz. You can interact with yourself. One way I've done this is by playing the beginning of a solo before the other parts, then the second part of the solo was played in after the other instruments had a say, etc. It works...I used that in Pink Jam:

https://soundcloud.com/dan-ling/pink-jam

[dewgong]

My favorite bass vst is Trillian. You could spend months practicing Trillian. Tons of expression if you can master the keyswitching, or use velocity, etc. to trigger the multisample changes.

Jazz is about playing: improvisation, interaction, elastic rhythm, expressive timbre, inflection and pitch-bending, etc. You can't do jazz if you're not a good player, and forget about programming jazz. You can interact with yourself. One way I've done this is by playing the beginning of a solo before the other parts, then the second part of the solo was played in after the other instruments had a say, etc. It works...I used that in Pink Jam:

https://soundcloud.com/dan-ling/pink-jam

I love the off kilter blues. Everything is very fluid and I really do get that feeling that im listening to a freewheeling jam session.

On the other hand Ive been playing piano for a very long time and the moment I heard the piano I knew it was sampled :-/ Im not really very familiar with the state of the acoustic modelling/sampling field but from what ive heard pianos are very difficult to recreate.

[dewgong]

https://soundcloud.com/heliope/golden-sun-plane/s-3UQuI

How is this in terms of realism?