KVR Audio

dwozzle · Post by **dwozzle** » Mon Apr 06, 2015 10:33 am

I've been demoing it for a bit now, trying to decide whether to jump on the discounted upgrade, which I think ends today. My feelings are decidedly mixed, wondering what other people think.

Seems to me like it has a bunch of cool features and sounds, but also a lot of bizarre limitations and strange approaches carried over from the original hardware and backwards patch compatibility. For instance, the whole upper waves concept, and one envelope shared between filter and wave mod.

The wavetables themselves are pretty unique, and are a big part of the synth's character. I generally like a lot of the sounds you can make with them. Wavetable synths to me in general are more about finding something interesting and massaging it in a direction you're looking to go, than envisioning a sound in your head and instantly knowing how to create it.

Sample handling is pretty crude; modern wavetable synths that weren't so beholden to the past can go way further.

Much to my surprise, I actually think the filter is pretty outstanding. Both saturation and high resonance settings give you sounds that are very much more interesting than just straight filtering.

I find patch management a little counter-intuitive, probably should read the manual further. Among other things, it seems that edits I don't save are still in effect on a patch if I load another one then go back to an edited one. Not 100% positive about that, might be something else in my sequence of actions that made that appear to be happening when it's not. I'm used to having to save a patch to have it be saved, pretty much standard I think.

Price is a bit high for an upgrade, even discounted, but if I look at it as a new synth, which it kind of is, it's not unreasonable.

So what are other people's feelings about Wave 3.V? Anyone own and use it? Own and not use it, or get rid of it, and if so, why?

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Mon Apr 06, 2015 10:52 am

I'm not even using the old 2.V anymore, 3.V is just so much better.

dwozzle · Post by **dwozzle** » Mon Apr 06, 2015 10:56 am

Agreed ED.

What's your feeling about its limitations and oddities, and it in comparison with other modern wavetable synths?

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Mon Apr 06, 2015 11:04 am

I'd say that it's probably the closest thing to an actual PPG in virtual realm, whereas other wavetable synths explore different avenues. There are merits to each and every one of them.

Ingonator · Post by **Ingonator** » Mon Apr 06, 2015 11:08 am

Still one of my all time favorite plugins of al time. I have many other wavetable plugins with more features but PPG Wave 3.V is still great IMO.
Maybe not as full featured as some others but great for what it is.

I was one of teh original beta testers (first version) and also made a factory bank for it. Besides that i got a commercial bank (see my signature) and also a free opne that is for both PPG 2.V and PPG 3.V (while recently there are some PPG 3.v only patches).

Link for the free bank: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 7&t=418294

In all 3 banks (factory, comecia, free) i made use of samples 8all created by myself) which are a great addition to sound that could be created with the wavetables. I also tried to use samples of sounds that are difficult or impossible to be created with the wavetables.
The sample imöemenation is indeed simple but like in the original PPG Wave 2 + Waveterm combination it is thought as a "Lo-Fi sampler", not as a replacement for e.g. Kontakt 5.

Speaking about the waveterm PPG Wave 3.V contains the whole original Waveterm sample library.
Besides thatcompared to theoriginal synth (and also PPG 2.V) there are 100+ new wavetables which all were created by Wolfgang Palm himself (the inventor of the PPG synths and the wavetable synthesis). Those wavetables are not included in any of the other Waldorf synths yet. He was also one of the beta testers and also created a bank of factory patches.

Walodrf PPG wave 3.v is the most accurate emulation of the real PPG Wave 2.x synths including te filter, envelopes and the aliasing (differenrt True PPG modes). Anyway there are also some additional features like e.g. nice sounding (IMO) effects.

In the multi mode you could split/layer up to 8 different patches and as you could set the key zones for each o the 8 multi parts you could aslo create multi samples this way (using a different sample for each zone and playing all 8 parts form the same or from diffrent MIDi channels).

With the recent uüdates it is even possible to use the lugins as VST3 (e.g. in Cubase) or as an AAX in ProTools.

Possible remaining problems, especially with the latest OSX versions, should be addressed as soon as other current fixes for Waldorf Edition 2 and the Beta for the upcoming Nave PC/MAc plugin are done.

PPG Wave 3.V has it's own character and Largo and also Nave (i got the Plugin Beta here) are no replacement IMO. In fact none of those 3 Waldorf plugins is a full replacement for the others.

The Waldorf plugins (+ hardware synths) seem to have their own sound and wavetable synths from other companies like e.g. Serum are hardly a replacement IMO. Maybe i am biased as i am closely related to Waldorf but this is my opinion.
I have used almost any available wavetable synth plugin (at least as a demo version) and also a few hardware synths like e.g. Blofeld, Q keyboard, Microwave XT, Virus TI and also a real PPG Wave 2.3 (even if with this it was only for an hour or a bit more),

dwozzle · Post by **dwozzle** » Mon Apr 06, 2015 11:41 am

Thanks for that Ingo.

Thing is, I don't care how accurately 3.V follows the hardware, or earlier versions of the plugin, though I understand why some people do. I find it frustrating the some reviewers (Sound on Sound for instance) concentrate almost exclusively on comparisons with the hardware, which very few people exploring the plugin today have ever even seen, much less gotten attached to. I'd care if I had years with the hardware, or a bunch of saved patches or songs from earlier plugin versions, but neither of those apply to me.

I do care about the sound and the workflow. I like the sounds, but some of the limitations and the workflow they lead to are far surpassed by other wavetable synths.

But I gather that both of you feel like I think I do, that it's a unique and very interesting piece on its own merits. Its limitations and weirdnesses are real, but not crippling -- part of its character even, if I'm feeling charitable.

I'm not an iOS guy, but I hear interesting things about Nave, which should be out for PC at some not-too-distant point I think. How much overlap with 3.V does that have, if either of you know?

toothnclaw · Post by **toothnclaw** » Mon Apr 06, 2015 11:47 am

dwozzle wrote:What's your feeling about its limitations and oddities, and it in comparison with other modern wavetable synths?

It's not a modern WT synthesizer. Limitations and oddities are part of what brings its identity, i.e. what makes it this particular instrument.

Its 'sound' is top notch. You are the one to decide whether 'the sound' fits your music, and whether the instrument fits with the way you tweak synths.

Edited patches are stored 'in memory'.

dwozzle · Post by **dwozzle** » Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:00 pm

Thanks for your feedback.

toothnclaw wrote:Edited patches are stored 'in memory'.

Hmmm, so I was right about that, most unusual. Is there any way to revert an edited patch in memory then?

lofty · Post by **lofty** » Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:04 pm

dwozzle · Post by **dwozzle** » Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:10 pm

Also, while I'm talking with people familiar with Waldorf stuff, I asked about a lost soft eLicenser in the bargain chat thread, nobody replied that I saw.

The docs and the eLicenser install warn you to store or license on a hardware dongle, because "it will be gone forever" if you have a disk crash or the computer dies. Is it really true that nobody will support you in that case, you'd have to buy it again? All disks and computers die eventually, and I don't want to use a hardware dongle for several reasons, but getting completely screwed in that case seems pretty user hostile. I'd expect some flak if I said that happened every week, but rare blowouts should be handled without it being a big deal on this level.

Has anyone dealt with that scenario? (Obviously I hope not, but still want to know what actually happens then.)

Nightpolymath · Post by **Nightpolymath** » Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:40 pm

dwozzle wrote:Also, while I'm talking with people familiar with Waldorf stuff, I asked about a lost soft eLicenser in the bargain chat thread, nobody replied that I saw.

The docs and the eLicenser install warn you to store or license on a hardware dongle, because "it will be gone forever" if you have a disk crash or the computer dies. Is it really true that nobody will support you in that case, you'd have to buy it again? All disks and computers die eventually, and I don't want to use a hardware dongle for several reasons, but getting completely screwed in that case seems pretty user hostile. I'd expect some flak if I said that happened every week, but rare blowouts should be handled without it being a big deal on this level.

Has anyone dealt with that scenario? (Obviously I hope not, but still want to know what actually happens then.)

I think another KVR member had the same issue but was able to produce a receipt for the purchase. I think having a license restored would involve a very small fee as long as the user can demonstrate that he or she is the original purchaser of the product. It is always better to purchase from the Waldorf online store to simplify record keeping. I work off an Elicenser dongle that is plugged into a USB hub.

For better or for worse the PPG Wave was conceived as an emulation of the hardware, quirks and all, so you may or may not like the philosophy and have to approach it with an open mind.

While the plugins work fine for a lot of people, they can be temperamental on some systems (including mine; I am on a Mac/Yosemite running Logic and Studio One) with reports of crashes and instabilities. This is something to keep in mind as well.

Ingonator · Post by **Ingonator** » Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:22 pm

dwozzle wrote:Also, while I'm talking with people familiar with Waldorf stuff, I asked about a lost soft eLicenser in the bargain chat thread, nobody replied that I saw.

The docs and the eLicenser install warn you to store or license on a hardware dongle, because "it will be gone forever" if you have a disk crash or the computer dies. Is it really true that nobody will support you in that case, you'd have to buy it again? All disks and computers die eventually, and I don't want to use a hardware dongle for several reasons, but getting completely screwed in that case seems pretty user hostile. I'd expect some flak if I said that happened every week, but rare blowouts should be handled without it being a big deal on this level.

Has anyone dealt with that scenario? (Obviously I hope not, but still want to know what actually happens then.)

I am using Waldorf products (and others) with an USB dongle since a quite long time (around 6 years for the Waldorf plugins AFAIK) and never encountered any serious issues that could not be solved within the eLicenser software (or with re-installing the software and/or a new update). Never lost a license due to a disk crash or re-installing the OS and this also works nicely with multiple computers.

As i got multiple licenses on teh dongle the price per plugin/program is also quite low.

dwozzle · Post by **dwozzle** » Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:03 pm

I understand the benefits of a hardware dongle, but I'm on a laptop with only 3 USB ports, all in use, don't want the problems of a hub, so a dongle is a non-starter. (This would also be my only eLicenser product, so the entire cost of a dongle would be for Wave 3.V. But it doesn't matter, can't use one.)

Do you know if they actually refuse to honor your license if your soft version gets trashed somehow?

robotmonkey · Post by **robotmonkey** » Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:35 pm

Like Ingo said, one of the all time favorite VST instruments.

Not only is it one of the best and unique sounding synths out there it is super intuitive to work with. If you have all the main controls mapped to midi keyboard then working with this synths is absolutely inspiring.

Waldorf, to their credit seems to be quite helpful if you loose your soft license. They are sometimes slow to respond and you have to have your proof of purchase but they do give you a new license.

T-CM11 · Post by **T-CM11** » Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:48 pm

dwozzle wrote:don't want the problems of a hub

...which are?

I have 4 powered hubs on my laptop, 20 ports in use. Never had any problems.

Thoughts on Waldorf PPG Wave 3.V?