KVR Audio

fluffy_little_something · Post by **fluffy_little_something** » Thu May 21, 2015 9:00 am

Are there any good piano plugins that are not sample-based? You know, like Lounge Lizard for electric piano, at that level of authenticity/quality more or less.
It should be a charismatic piano suited for R&B, Fusion, Jazz, Brazilian, so please no bloody Claydermanesque grand piano crap sound suitable for choir boys or nursing homes

nix808 · Post by **nix808** » Thu May 21, 2015 9:14 am

I think TruePianos is a modelling one.

edit- It's actually a physical modelling/samples hybrid
edit2- Pianoteq is one

layzer · Post by **layzer** » Thu May 21, 2015 9:21 am

you mean something like Revitar2 emulates an acustic guitar without samples?
i dont know of anything that simulates say, a convinceble steinway grand, that
would be pretty impressive though!

BBFG# · Post by **BBFG#** » Thu May 21, 2015 9:30 am

I couldn't find any info on the True Pianos site of whether they were sampled or modeled.
But somehow I do get the impression they might be (partially) modeled.

Of course, these threads will always bring up Modartt Pianoteq. I felt like version 4 was good but didn't grab me enough to buy. However, Version 5 is stellar for acoustic pianos. Alas, they won't let you demo the CP electric grand though (which could have closed me on it). And I still prefer L-Lizard for electric pianos over it.

I'm currently using the Steinberg Grand 3 pianos and they also imply they are modeled. And in certain ways I prefer it over Pianoteq, but would still probably pick up Pianoteq if the right sale came along for it.

In the sampled realm, I did like the XLN acoustics (again, didn't care for the electric at all though), but not enough to keep them. And for the most part, I don't miss them, but I would say the one of theirs I do kind of miss was again the CP electric grand. Even over the CP modeled one I have in Grand 3.

mtyas · Post by **mtyas** » Thu May 21, 2015 9:32 am

Pianoteq is what you're looking for, it sounds and feels amazing, and you can really fiddle with the sounds to make it sound as you want. Since I've started using it I can't enjoy sampled pianos anymore (and I've tried a few). It's less than 50mb so you don't see any footprint on your Hard disk, it does use a bit of CPU, but nothing extreme.
I don't know anything about DSP processing,but I'm quite sure the maths used in this plugin is close to a miracle.

fluffy_little_something · Post by **fluffy_little_something** » Thu May 21, 2015 9:35 am

BBFG# wrote:I couldn't find any info on the True Pianos site of whether they were sampled or modeled.
But somehow I do get the impression they might be (partially) modeled.

Of course, these threads will always bring up Modartt Pianoteq. I felt like version 4 was good but didn't grab me enough to buy. However, Version 5 is stellar for acoustic pianos. Alas, they won't let you demo the CP electric grand though (which could have closed me on it). And I still prefer L-Lizard for electric pianos over it.

I'm currently using the Steinberg Grand 3 pianos and they also imply they are modeled. And in certain ways I prefer it over Pianoteq, but would still probably pick up Pianoteq if the right sale came along for it.

In the sampled realm, I did like the XLN acoustics (again, didn't care for the electric at all though), but not enough to keep them. And for the most part, I don't miss them, but I would say the one of theirs I do kind of miss was again the CP electric grand. Even over the CP modeled one I have in Grand 3.

Cool, they have various models on the Pianoteq site, will check them to see if anything matches the sound I am after

wagtunes · Post by **wagtunes** » Thu May 21, 2015 10:18 am

+1 for Pianoteq. I am using it right now for a club mix. It can do anything from classical to club to jazz. Very flexible. Lots of controls including as many mics as you want to stick on it. Design your own room for it.

In short, I've found nothing as good that's not sample based and even blows my Bosey 290 out of the water as far as cutting through a mix.

Some people don't like it. I say judge for yourself and don't let them sway you.

Lotta modeling haters out there.

fluffy_little_something · Post by **fluffy_little_something** » Thu May 21, 2015 10:30 am

Yeah, well, the microphone thingy is only possible with the expensive version. Not that it would matter to me, just saying

Plus, I don't like that they don't let customers pick any two instruments they would like to have. After all, they all cost 49 euros. I don't want the f**king Steinway...

Ingonator · Post by **Ingonator** » Thu May 21, 2015 10:44 am

Truepianos is a physical modlling and samples hybrid as mentioend above. The 5 included models have installer sizes of 43 up to 90 MB (there is an installer for each model, besides the main installer).

The latest model is the Atlantis module and the quality is great IMO.

I got Truepianos since 2008 now and i still love it. Anyway i am not a classical Piano player so it is possible that for those it is not good enough while for the average player it seems to be great.

Also got the Basic version of the dicontnued Garritan Authorized Steinway Piano which so far seemed to be the only one directly created in coopertaion with Steinway.
While mostly sample based some parts also seem to involve modelling like e.g. sympathetic resonance and the hammer sounds (called "mechanical noise" at the GUI and that parameter could make a big difference in the sound).

Last but not least i got my Yamaha Motif ES 7 with the built-in Pianos and also a custom Steinway Model D sample set.

Have also tested Pianoteq recently and while it sound great i did not have the feeling that i really need it based on what i alraedy got and for what i use it. If i would buy it i guess i would go for the Stage version.
Anyway if i would not alraedy have other choices that i am also a bit used to after several years i am quite sure i would go for Pianoteq.

A big advantage of modelled Pians seems to be that the timbre chages more "naturally" when using diferent velocity. With Sample libraries this depends on velocity switching and how many samples are included for each key. Those libraries could reach insane sizes, just to reproduce the behavior at different velocity properly. In worst case a sample libray always sounds similar, no matter which velocity you use at a certain key.

BBFG# · Post by **BBFG#** » Thu May 21, 2015 10:45 am

fluffy_little_something wrote:Yeah, well, the microphone thingy is only possible with the expensive version. Not that it would matter to me, just saying
Plus, I don't like that they don't let customers pick any two instruments they would like to have. After all, they all cost 49 euros. I don't want the f**king Steinway...

That is a bit of an issue with me also, but like I said, the right sale on the stage version could easily get me over that. Not sure I really need the mic'ing options TBH. I especially like the antique classicals though, which at least come with all versions.

Give the Steinberg Grand 3 a try also though. (Trial Demo is available). I picked it up during one of their sales and have not really missed having Pianoteq since. (But I still watch for sales on it).

The Grand 3:
http://www.steinberg.net/en/products/vs ... loads.html

rod_zero · Post by **rod_zero** » Thu May 21, 2015 10:51 am

BBFG# wrote:
fluffy_little_something wrote:Yeah, well, the microphone thingy is only possible with the expensive version. Not that it would matter to me, just saying
Plus, I don't like that they don't let customers pick any two instruments they would like to have. After all, they all cost 49 euros. I don't want the f**king Steinway...
That is a bit of an issue with me also, but like I said, the right sale on the stage version could easily get me over that. Not sure I really need the mic'ing options TBH. I especially like the antique classicals though, which at least come with all versions.

Give the Steinberg Grand 3 a try also though. (Trial Demo is available). I picked it up during one of their sales and have not really missed having Pianoteq since. (But I still watch for sales on it).

The Grand 3:
http://www.steinberg.net/en/products/vs ... loads.html

For playing the stage version is OK, but the mic possitions become more usefull for production.

fluffy_little_something · Post by **fluffy_little_something** » Thu May 21, 2015 11:00 am

I used to have the Pianissimo thingy that is bundled with Mixcraft Pro, but I didn't like its sound at all, it just didn't fit in my music. That is why I downgraded to the regular Mixcraft version, which comes without that piano.

I like the Pianoteq upright piano sound

lfm · Post by **lfm** » Thu May 21, 2015 11:12 am

fluffy_little_something wrote:Yeah, well, the microphone thingy is only possible with the expensive version. Not that it would matter to me, just saying
Plus, I don't like that they don't let customers pick any two instruments they would like to have. After all, they all cost 49 euros. I don't want the f**king Steinway...

Have to agree on twisted options how to select what you want.

I also think Pianoteq is a good product, but the company seems too manipulative, or how I shall put it - you really have to search to get deep enough info. If you want some control you are in for at least standard or pro version, but let you first think you can get what you want for decent money. Adding what you really want in piano models, you are not.

To mention one thing - buy the cheapo Stage version - it does not even load presets from the bigger versions - just a subset of what is in presets are loaded. so engine itself is cutdown - as well as control options like mike positions etc.

I think it's alright to cut down control options, but not providing the same sound buying the same models?????
What are they thinking - a bit too gready for me.

I put the money like on the big pianoteq version on a used digital Yamaha instead, and I also have a onebutton push to just sit a play a little while - which is really nice - both a good keybed and sound in one go. The weakest part is really internal amps, even for headphones. With line outs to a good mixer they sound much better and ok for recording, I think, unless you are going for classic concert grand in a big hall style of music.

Just another approach....

fluffy_little_something · Post by **fluffy_little_something** » Thu May 21, 2015 11:13 am

Ingonator wrote:Truepianos is a physical modlling and samples hybrid as mentioend above. The 5 included models have installer sizes of 43 up to 90 MB (there is an installer for each model, besides the main installer).

The latest model is the Atlantis module and the quality is great IMO.

I got Truepianos since 2008 now and i still love it. Anyway i am not a classical Piano player so it is possible that for those it is not good enough while for the average player it seems to be great.

Also got the Basic version of the dicontnued Garritan Authorized Steinway Piano which so far seemed to be the only one directly created in coopertaion with Steinway.
While mostly sample based some parts also seem to involve modelling like e.g. sympathetic resonance and the hammer sounds (called "mechanical noise" at the GUI and that parameter could make a big difference in the sound).

Last but not least i got my Yamaha Motif ES 7 with the built-in Pianos and also a custom Steinway Model D sample set.

Have also tested Pianoteq recently and while it sound great i did not have the feeling that i really need it based on what i alraedy got and for what i use it. If i would buy it i guess i would go for the Stage version.
Anyway if i would not alraedy have other choices that i am also a bit used to after several years i am quite sure i would go for Pianoteq.

A big advantage of modelled Pians seems to be that the timbre chages more "naturally" when using diferent velocity. With Sample libraries this depends on velocity switching and how many samples are included for each key. Those libraries could reach insane sizes, just to reproduce the behavior at different velocity properly. In worst case a sample libray always sounds similar, no matter which velocity you use at a certain key.

Yes, I also dislike samples. I am impressed by the sound of the Lounge Lizard Rhodes, hardly nay footprint be it on the RAM or on the CPU.

Not a big fan of Steinberg here. I don't know why they are so popular. Initially I was impressed by Retrologue, but the more I played and tweaked it, the more I noticed the ugly noise. They seem to have quality issues, and I assume it is not limited to Retrologue.
With Cubase I read the octaves are wrong somehow...

fluffy_little_something · Post by **fluffy_little_something** » Thu May 21, 2015 11:17 am

lfm wrote:
fluffy_little_something wrote:Yeah, well, the microphone thingy is only possible with the expensive version. Not that it would matter to me, just saying
Plus, I don't like that they don't let customers pick any two instruments they would like to have. After all, they all cost 49 euros. I don't want the f**king Steinway...
Have to agree on twisted options how to select what you want.

I also think Pianoteq is a good product, but the company seems too manipulative, or how I shall put it - you really have to search to get deep enough info. If you want some control you are in for at least standard or pro version, but let you first think you can get what you want for decent money. Adding what you really want in piano models, you are not.

I put the money like on the big pianoteq version on a used digital Yamaha instead, and I also have a onebutton push to just sit a play a little while - which is really nice - both a good keybed and sound in one go. The weakest part is really internal amps, even for headphones. With line outs to a good mixer they sound much better and ok for recording, I think, unless you are going for classic concert grand in a big hall style of music.

Just another approach....

Oh, I don't have room for a real piano

Piano plugins?