KVR Audio

ocmtime · Post by **ocmtime** » Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:46 am

Is there a way to hear the microphone input without latency in windows 7 while using the simple sound recorder included with windows for example ?
This was not a problem in windows xp .

ocmtime · Post by **ocmtime** » Sat Jun 13, 2015 1:21 pm

do you know any solution to this problem please ?

Hink · Post by **Hink** » Sun Jun 14, 2015 5:11 pm

there is no solution, latency is a fact of life. The two workaround methods are using a soundcard with direct monitoring or using a small mixer in your chain. The first method mixes the input sound with the output sound and the second, a small mixer, would do the same. It takes time for your computer to process the input signal and send it to the output, while this can reduced to milliseconds with a decent soundcard and ASIO drivers the fact is it still takes processing time. You can minimize the latency by reducing the size of your buffers (done with the controls for your soundcard), but if you are using the stock soundcard in your computer you will not have the low latency ASIO buffers (you can get a workaround program called ASIO4all but that is not optimal) and you may not have such an option.

A cheap soundcard with ASIO driver can be found new for around 100 bux, for any real recording work you need to start with a soundcard designed for recording. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but those are just the facts.

ocmtime · Post by **ocmtime** » Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:01 am

Hi Hink
Thank you for taking your time to answer.
Asio4all does reduce latency but I am talking about the analog monitoring present in the since the older days in msdos, win31,95,98,xp but changed in vista ,7,8 .
In windows7 audio si no longer sent from the microphone to the speakers in analog form (less that 1ms latency) .
Audio in windows 7 is digitized and streamed for monitoring in speakers.
It is a well known problem all over youtube. I am surprised that kvraudio has so few windows7 users encountering this problem.

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:13 am

ocmtime wrote:Hi Hink
Thank you for taking your time to answer.
Asio4all does reduce latency but I am talking about the analog monitoring present in the since the older days in msdos, win31,95,98,xp but changed in vista ,7,8 .
In windows7 audio si no longer sent from the microphone to the speakers in analog form (less that 1ms latency) .
Audio in windows 7 is digitized and streamed for monitoring in speakers..

'Analogue monitoring' is a component of the hardware, not the OS. If the hardware doesnt offer it, or the drivers dont support it, the OS cant provide it.

On the other hand, plenty of audio devices with zero-latency hardware monitoring work perfectly well in Windows 7. From the sound of it, you're expecting onboard sound to have this capability, but you probably wont find it unless you get a separate audio device, but you will find 'zero-latency monitoring' on the feature list of plenty of devices, from USB to internal PCIe cards etc (cf http://www.mackie.com/products/onyxblackjack/ as an example)

ocmtime · Post by **ocmtime** » Fri Jul 10, 2015 3:33 am

whyterabbyt please take a look at this. it is showing the same audio card on win 8.1 with big latency and then same card in xp with zero latency using
what do you think ?

BertKoor · Post by **BertKoor** » Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:17 am

ocmtime wrote:whyterabbyt please take a look at this. it is showing the same audio card on win 8.1 with big latency and then same card in xp with zero latency using
what do you think ?

"it" is showing? Showing what and where?? What's your audio card or onboard chip?

It's very possible the Win7 driver offers different features than the XP driver did. I had that happen all the time... The first driver is full of features, then for a next OS version they have to rewrite some stuff and drop features because implementation costs time == money for no direct return.

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Fri Jul 10, 2015 11:08 am

ocmtime wrote:whyterabbyt please take a look at this. it is showing the same audio card on win 8.1 with big latency and then same card in xp with zero latency using
what do you think ?

i think you forgot to post a link or attachment. nevertheless, as Bertkoor reinforces, what I said before stays unchanged...
" 'Analogue monitoring' is a component of the hardware, not the OS. If the hardware doesnt offer it, or the drivers dont support it, the OS cant provide it. "

ocmtime · Post by **ocmtime** » Sat Jul 11, 2015 6:16 am

yes I forgot to post the link to the video

sorry for that.

youtube title : "Audio latency issues in Windows 7, 8 and 8.1"

DoktorTenma · Post by **DoktorTenma** » Sat Jul 11, 2015 8:40 am

I don't believe that video shows the user using the same sound card on the Windows XP computer and the Windows 8.1 computer.

As the others have mentioned, the soundcard itself must support direct monitoring.

This is from the Microsoft developer of the Windows 7 "Listen to this device" feature:

"First a bit of history. Way back in the dark ages (Windows XP timeframe), audio solution manufacturers used to include an analog circuitry that connected the line in to the speaker jack on the PC. They routed this through an analog volume control and exposed this through the audio device topology. People used this functionality to connect their portable media players to their PCs. While this feature was popular with customers, the cost of providing the circuitry was too much for some IHVs and they started removing this functionality from their products starting some time before Vista shipped.

Not surprisingly, customers complained about this and we decided to implement equivalent functionality in the audio subsystem in Windows. Because we’re doing this in the audio subsystem instead of in hardware, it allows you to configure the capture to run between any two devices."

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/larryosterman/a ... en-to.aspx

So, if the soundcard does not have the feature you will not get latency free monitoring.

ocmtime · Post by **ocmtime** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:29 am

but why does asio4all produce latency of 256 while windows audio "listen to this device" gives over 2048 ? Does it mean asio4all audio driver is better that windows 7.1 native driver audio monitoring ?

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:49 am

ocmtime wrote:but why does asio4all produce latency of 256 while windows audio "listen to this device" gives over 2048 ? Does it mean asio4all audio driver is better that windows 7.1 native driver audio monitoring ?

Because ASIO4All was designed for low-latency audio.

annode · Post by **annode** » Thu Jul 16, 2015 6:38 am

Just checked my win XP WDM (Windows Driver Model) driver on embedded audio chip. It is defaulted as a "direct throughput"

That said, and I can`t confirm what i`d get with win8 on this same PC ,
I can guess at this;
- Around the time of Vista Microsoft had released a new framework to replace WDM, called the Windows Driver Foundation. I`m not a developer, so I don`t know, but i`ll guess this new driver format is the culprit. It is backwards compatible through XP to 98.

You can try to understand that and possibly dload and install the old WDM sound driver, if you happen to have a WDF driver installed. Or you can buy a new sound card/system which utilizes an ASIO driver...not the ASIO4ALL app., it`s not the same thing. The Audigy card shown in the Youtube is also WDM i`ll guess...and not ASIO set to a small sample rate.

A real ASIO driver with appropriate controller, will sub-divide the sound samples you are monitoring so you don`t consciously hear any delay latency.
WDM can`t do this, so the software/driver would default a direct throughput to speakers and a line-in to the internal section, i`m guessing. Now that the driver has been re-written, i`ll guess the throughput has been eliminated.

EDIT - From above;

They routed this through an analog volume control and exposed this through the audio device topology.

I`ve never seen anything like this. I`ve had my hands on numerous sound cards from back in the day win98.

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Thu Jul 16, 2015 9:35 am

annode wrote:A real ASIO driver with appropriate controller, will sub-divide the sound samples you are monitoring so you don`t consciously hear any delay latency. WDM can`t do this, so the software/driver would default a direct throughput to speakers and a line-in to the internal section, i`m guessing.

could you explain what you mean by 'sub-divide the sound samples you are monitoring' ??

EDIT - From above;
They routed this through an analog volume control and exposed this through the audio device topology.
I`ve never seen anything like this. I`ve had my hands on numerous sound cards from back in the day win98.

On consumer systems, even as late as win98 days, you typically needed one of these between your CD drive and your soundcard.

http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/internal-anal ... bles-lq80b

annode · Post by **annode** » Thu Jul 16, 2015 2:18 pm

This is interesting;
[ASIO] interface support is normally restricted to Microsoft Windows. Starting with Windows Vista, KMixer has been removed and replaced by WASAPI and a new WaveRT port driver.

Concerning my samples being divided statement;
It appears that the ASIO card is allowing me to hear less latency by outputing less samples in the stream...as if being divided down.
I have a feeling i`m being set up for some tech debate.

Windows 7 latency monitoring audio from microphone