Whole-tone and dimished scales?

[logburner]

Hi,

I've been learning music theory with piano for a while and trying to compose a tune with more theoretically functional manner like tritone substitution and so on.

One thing I noticed is that key modulation is one of the powerful effects to make harmony sound interesting, as well as altered chords.

Now I have a question. How could I use whole-tone and diminished scales for a key change transition? One example I learnt off Mark Levine's "The Jazz Piano Book" is to use a whole-tone 5th in tritone substitution, replacing a usual dominant 7th.

[simon.a.billington]

Ahhhh also known as the Coltrane change.

At some point John Coltrane noticed that it's possible to modulate keys with a song if you could priced the change to the new key by using a ii-V7 or simply a V7 chord from the new key, just preceding the change.

That idea can be developed further if use suitable substitutions for those chords. For example, instead of a V7 try a vii7b5 chord from the same key.

Well, that's the fundamental, ultimately its up to the ear to decide if it likes what its hearing.

[herodotus]

The diminished scale consists of any two diminished 7th chords a semitone apart. So it is good as a transitional scale.

An interesting fact is that there are only 3 diminished scales. After the first two semitone transpositions, the remaining transpositions are just the same collections of notes starting at a different point within the scale.

[simon.a.billington]

Otherwise known as a mode... But I don't think many really refer to them that way.

The biggest decision really, concerning diminished scales, is whole-tone half-tone or half-tone whole-tone.

Depending on your composition it could also sit over a dominant chord, especially if you also throw in a #9 or b9. It could also sit over a m7b5 chord... But we are starting to approach progressive jazz territory with these ideas.

Not that I can't be useful in other contexts, in fact, in fact I'm almost certain it could be.

[herodotus]

Otherwise known as a mode... But I don't think many really refer to them that way.

Yeah, that was just Messiaen, and he's dead.

I do think that the diminished scale is useful on its own. It gets used in a lot of heavy metal, and was also used extensively by more highbrow types like Stravinsky and Bartok. Unlike the whole tone scale, it contains many traditional chords: major or minor triads, along with some seventh and ninth chords. The fact that the three different diminished scales are as easily arranged a fifth apart as a second apart means that you can use the three in a sort of variation on the tonic/dominant/subdominant framework of traditional harmony.

[psenior]

Hi logburner,
This is a great question. As Barry Harris would say, everything comes from the diminished. A diminished chord lets you modulate to other keys easily. If you think about it, a diminished chord could be 4 different 7b9 chords, the base notes of which would also form a diminished chord.
For example, if we had a B diminished chord (B D F Ab), this could be C#7b9, E7b9, G7b9, and/or Bb7b9. So with this one chord we could modulate (via a 5 to 1 progression) to 8 different keys, F# major or minor, C major or minor, A major or minor, and/or Eb major or minor.
We are just scratching the surface of a big topic here, so I recommend that you start listening to, reading and watching every scrap of educational material Barry Harris puts out there if you really want to learn more. His books and videos are pricey but well worth it. And stop reading/listening to Mark Levine. Mark himself said he learned more about jazz in one workshop with Barry than he ever did during college (or something like that).

[logburner]

Ahhhh also known as the Coltrane change.

At some point John Coltrane noticed that it's possible to modulate keys with a song if you could priced the change to the new key by using a ii-V7 or simply a V7 chord from the new key, just preceding the change.

That idea can be developed further if use suitable substitutions for those chords. For example, instead of a V7 try a vii7b5 chord from the same key.

Well, that's the fundamental, ultimately its up to the ear to decide if it likes what its hearing.

Thanks, simon.

vii7b5 replacing V7 sounds kinda like V7 without root key. I've read somewhere that there's a thing called "substitution chord" in classical theory, meaning iii or vi can subtitute for I, and vii can subtitute for V. vii7b5 replacing V7 based on this mechanism?

Also, is there a good tune that uses Coltrane Change in somewhat obvious and effective way?

[logburner]

The diminished scale consists of any two diminished 7th chords a semitone apart. So it is good as a transitional scale.

An interesting fact is that there are only 3 diminished scales. After the first two semitone transpositions, the remaining transpositions are just the same collections of notes starting at a different point within the scale.

Yeah, it's interesting that dimished scales are symmetrical, too.

Please excuse me for my lack of understanding the language (English isn't my mother tongue), but what do you mean by "After the first two semitone transpositions, the remaining transpositions are just the same collections of notes within the scale"?

[logburner]

Otherwise known as a mode... But I don't think many really refer to them that way.

Yeah, that was just Messiaen, and he's dead.

I do think that the diminished scale is useful on its own. It gets used in a lot of heavy metal, and was also used extensively by more highbrow types like Stravinsky and Bartok. Unlike the whole tone scale, it contains many traditional chords: major or minor triads, along with some seventh and ninth chords. The fact that the three different diminished scales are as easily arranged a fifth apart as a second apart means that you can use the three in a sort of variation on the tonic/dominant/subdominant framework of traditional harmony.

I think diminished scales have very moody feel, which sounds very different from chords derived from major or minor scales. I wanted to post an example of bassline that utilises (which I guess) diminished scales, but doesn't exist on youtube or elsewhere. It's called "K.J.Z" by Photek if you are interested.

What I find difficult to utilise diminished scales is probably because I make chord progressions without following traditional ii-V or IV-V-I. I'd love to figure out logical approach to composition but after heavily intrigued by modal jazz stuff like "Nardis", I came to think "what? would I get much out of following those ii-V and so on?". Then just started to learn modes, and reached whole-tone and diminished scales.

[logburner]

Hi logburner,
This is a great question. As Barry Harris would say, everything comes from the diminished. A diminished chord lets you modulate to other keys easily. If you think about it, a diminished chord could be 4 different 7b9 chords, the base notes of which would also form a diminished chord.
For example, if we had a B diminished chord (B D F Ab), this could be C#7b9, E7b9, G7b9, and/or Bb7b9. So with this one chord we could modulate (via a 5 to 1 progression) to 8 different keys, F# major or minor, C major or minor, A major or minor, and/or Eb major or minor.
We are just scratching the surface of a big topic here, so I recommend that you start listening to, reading and watching every scrap of educational material Barry Harris puts out there if you really want to learn more. His books and videos are pricey but well worth it. And stop reading/listening to Mark Levine. Mark himself said he learned more about jazz in one workshop with Barry than he ever did during college (or something like that).

Ouch! I've already bought 3 of Mark Levine's books! He should have explained Barry Harris's theory first in his books!

Thanks for explaining the modulation with a diminished chord. I'll try what you wrote here on my digital piano and see how that sounds and experiment by connecting it to other chords.

Is there any particular book by Barry Harris that I should look out for? There's an online tutorial going for $15, but doesn't look like it goes much in depth. Of course I'm open to any tutorials though.

[logburner]

For example, if we had a B diminished chord (B D F Ab), this could be C#7b9, E7b9, G7b9, and/or Bb7b9. So with this one chord we could modulate (via a 5 to 1 progression) to 8 different keys, F# major or minor, C major or minor, A major or minor, and/or Eb major or minor.

Just tried following this tip and...

This is fantastic! Exaxtly something I was looking for! Very logical and systematic way of understanding and utilising diminished scales! And it looks like this method can be expanded with different scales and chords. Thanks so much, psenior!

[simon.a.billington]

Ahhhh also known as the Coltrane change.

At some point John Coltrane noticed that it's possible to modulate keys with a song if you could priced the change to the new key by using a ii-V7 or simply a V7 chord from the new key, just preceding the change.

That idea can be developed further if use suitable substitutions for those chords. For example, instead of a V7 try a vii7b5 chord from the same key.

Well, that's the fundamental, ultimately its up to the ear to decide if it likes what its hearing.

Thanks, simon.

vii7b5 replacing V7 sounds kinda like V7 without root key. I've read somewhere that there's a thing called "substitution chord" in classical theory, meaning iii or vi can subtitute for I, and vii can subtitute for V. vii7b5 replacing V7 based on this mechanism?

Also, is there a good tune that uses Coltrane Change in somewhat obvious and effective way?

Sorry, the only song I know of, but it's en excellent example, is Coltrane's own Giant Steps.

It's a good study piece for this very thing.

[psenior]

Hi logburner,
This is a great question. As Barry Harris would say, everything comes from the diminished. A diminished chord lets you modulate to other keys easily. If you think about it, a diminished chord could be 4 different 7b9 chords, the base notes of which would also form a diminished chord.
For example, if we had a B diminished chord (B D F Ab), this could be C#7b9, E7b9, G7b9, and/or Bb7b9. So with this one chord we could modulate (via a 5 to 1 progression) to 8 different keys, F# major or minor, C major or minor, A major or minor, and/or Eb major or minor.
We are just scratching the surface of a big topic here, so I recommend that you start listening to, reading and watching every scrap of educational material Barry Harris puts out there if you really want to learn more. His books and videos are pricey but well worth it. And stop reading/listening to Mark Levine. Mark himself said he learned more about jazz in one workshop with Barry than he ever did during college (or something like that).

Ouch! I've already bought 3 of Mark Levine's books! He should have explained Barry Harris's theory first in his books!

Thanks for explaining the modulation with a diminished chord. I'll try what you wrote here on my digital piano and see how that sounds and experiment by connecting it to other chords.

Is there any particular book by Barry Harris that I should look out for? There's an online tutorial going for $15, but doesn't look like it goes much in depth. Of course I'm open to any tutorials though.

Mark Levine does explain a tiny bit of Barry's stuff but he puts his own little twist on it which screws everything up completely. Mainly in the sections where he talks about block chords.
I don't have that $15 book, so I can't comment on it. The great thing about Barry's material is that with just a little bit of info, like the piece I gave you, it can expand your musical boundaries a lot.
I suggest you check YouTube for videos of Barry teaching at his jazz workshops. If you like what you see, go to his website and buy the volume 1 & 2 live workshop books/DVDs. If you don't want to spend that much, then you can buy books some of his students have written, guitarists such as Roni Ben Hur and Alan Kingsman.
Barry is all about functional harmony, which is exactly what you said you were looking for in your original post. I've discussed a lot of his concepts in the past on this forum, so you might want to read through my old posts as well. Keep asking questions and I'll help out as much as I can.

[logburner]

Ahhhh also known as the Coltrane change.

At some point John Coltrane noticed that it's possible to modulate keys with a song if you could priced the change to the new key by using a ii-V7 or simply a V7 chord from the new key, just preceding the change.

That idea can be developed further if use suitable substitutions for those chords. For example, instead of a V7 try a vii7b5 chord from the same key.

Well, that's the fundamental, ultimately its up to the ear to decide if it likes what its hearing.

Thanks, simon.

vii7b5 replacing V7 sounds kinda like V7 without root key. I've read somewhere that there's a thing called "substitution chord" in classical theory, meaning iii or vi can subtitute for I, and vii can subtitute for V. vii7b5 replacing V7 based on this mechanism?

Also, is there a good tune that uses Coltrane Change in somewhat obvious and effective way?

Sorry, the only song I know of, but it's en excellent example, is Coltrane's own Giant Steps.

It's a good study piece for this very thing.

Cool! Thanks!

[logburner]

Hi logburner,
This is a great question. As Barry Harris would say, everything comes from the diminished. A diminished chord lets you modulate to other keys easily. If you think about it, a diminished chord could be 4 different 7b9 chords, the base notes of which would also form a diminished chord.
For example, if we had a B diminished chord (B D F Ab), this could be C#7b9, E7b9, G7b9, and/or Bb7b9. So with this one chord we could modulate (via a 5 to 1 progression) to 8 different keys, F# major or minor, C major or minor, A major or minor, and/or Eb major or minor.
We are just scratching the surface of a big topic here, so I recommend that you start listening to, reading and watching every scrap of educational material Barry Harris puts out there if you really want to learn more. His books and videos are pricey but well worth it. And stop reading/listening to Mark Levine. Mark himself said he learned more about jazz in one workshop with Barry than he ever did during college (or something like that).

Ouch! I've already bought 3 of Mark Levine's books! He should have explained Barry Harris's theory first in his books!

Thanks for explaining the modulation with a diminished chord. I'll try what you wrote here on my digital piano and see how that sounds and experiment by connecting it to other chords.

Is there any particular book by Barry Harris that I should look out for? There's an online tutorial going for $15, but doesn't look like it goes much in depth. Of course I'm open to any tutorials though.

Mark Levine does explain a tiny bit of Barry's stuff but he puts his own little twist on it which screws everything up completely. Mainly in the sections where he talks about block chords.
I don't have that $15 book, so I can't comment on it. The great thing about Barry's material is that with just a little bit of info, like the piece I gave you, it can expand your musical boundaries a lot.
I suggest you check YouTube for videos of Barry teaching at his jazz workshops. If you like what you see, go to his website and buy the volume 1 & 2 live workshop books/DVDs. If you don't want to spend that much, then you can buy books some of his students have written, guitarists such as Roni Ben Hur and Alan Kingsman.
Barry is all about functional harmony, which is exactly what you said you were looking for in your original post. I've discussed a lot of his concepts in the past on this forum, so you might want to read through my old posts as well. Keep asking questions and I'll help out as much as I can.

Thanks again, psenior! I feel very lucky to have your inputs here, sooo spot-on! Just watched one of his workshops on youtube and his quick reharmonisation of Tea For Two is amazing! Sounds more natural and sophisticated.. I'll watch some more and track down your previous posts here, too.

Just another question if you can be bothered answering. As much as I'm intrigued by Barry Harris' diminished theory, I'm also keen to learn about Modal Jazz on compositional side of things. Mark Levine's book touches on So What, but nothing particularly systematic. Is there any book or theorist you'd recommend for learning Modal Jazz?