KVR Audio

lfm · Post by **lfm** » Fri Jul 24, 2015 9:59 am

Read someone that stated that Cubase Pro is even better score abilities than top versions of separate notation software.

And even more weird would be if that is true and it Cubase Pro 8 cost less than any of those - which seems to be the case.

What is the deal with pricing of separate notation - why so expensive?

Talking about entry level scoring around $100 like Sibelius First, Finale Printmusic etc - where do they excel over scoring in major daws?

Thinking Cubase, Sonar, Samplitude as a comparison.
You buy top versions of these daws for less than top notation software alone - but do they fall short even towards entry level scoring software.

How are daws doing here - in score editing?
It's very convenient with integrated score in daw.

Any input welcome.
Thanks.

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:08 am

Nope, I don't think any DAW's score editing compares to those, personally.

lfm · Post by **lfm** » Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:42 am

Thanks.

Is it possible to classify in cathegories maybe:
a) clefs, key markers #/b-sets beginning stave, time signatures, tuplets, dotted noted?
b) bows, expressions, tempo?
c) lyrics verses?
d) size like number of staves below each other?
e) chord diagrams

I just know Sonar having odd triplet limitations, not allowing rests.

I guess you pay a lot for overlapping with daw stuff like audio and plugin and libraries shipped with separate notation software.

Where are daw version lacking mostly?

fmr · Post by **fmr** » Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:19 am

When it comes to simple score editing (just transcribing pop music), Cubase (and Logic) can perform a decent job.

Problem resides when you want to deeply go into score editing, like creating expressions, cross-staff notes, non standard beaming, positioning beams, ties, slurs, small notes like appogiaturas and cadenzas, non-standard head-notes, non-standard bar divisions, etc. These things are either extraordinarily difficult or even impossible to achieve.

Besides, while Finale and Sibelius allow you to use several different music fonts, define note positioning per note, page positioning and staff positioning in pages, Cubase and Logic (again), don't allow this kind of stuff (or if they do, it's buried deep in the features, and I still didn't find it).

MOTU once was in the leading role in what concerns notation, and they even had a professional notation software (first called Professional Composer, and later Mosaic). When they discontinued it, I had the hope they would include all those features inside Digital Performer. They included some, but not all, unfortunately. Those more specialized were left out, up to today.

I guess that's because the users of one kind of program don't overlap that much with the users of the other kind. That's why notation programs also don't go so much into sequence editing and áudio editing (while they could).

Michael L · Post by **Michael L** » Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:29 am

+1 to @fmr
For a more detailed answer than you may want, read the Steinberg blog written by the intrepid band of ex-Sibelius developers creating a scoring program to stand alongside Cubase:
http://blog.steinberg.net

lfm · Post by **lfm** » Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:47 am

Thanks - the fog is now merly a mist.

But it does not sound overly complicated, to what most software do like graphics software etc.

Is it proper translation of these finer adjustments of score into midi that is the difficult part?
An accellerando or whatever it's called, massive amount of tempo adjustments etc.

lfm · Post by **lfm** » Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:48 am

Michael L wrote:+1 to @fmr
For a more detailed answer than you may want, read the Steinberg blog written by the intrepid band of ex-Sibelius developers creating a scoring program to stand alongside Cubase:
http://blog.steinberg.net

I will, thank you for the tip.

fmr · Post by **fmr** » Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:00 pm

lfm wrote: Is it proper translation of these finer adjustments of score into midi that is the difficult part?
An accellerando or whatever it's called, massive amount of tempo adjustments etc.

No, that would be quite easy. It's the small details that belong to engraving, and do not go into score editors built in sequencers. Relatively simple things like cross-staff beaming or beaming across barlines. Or polyphonic writing (Logic achieve it, but the solution found is not very good, IMO - involves you to add several sequence lines into a single staff, as 1-2; 3-4).

These are just some simple examples. Now, think about different note spacing and positioning across bars, beaming adjustements and inclination, different bars per line, positioning of accidents, etc.

These usually are not issues in the simple pop writing and transcription, but when you go into more serious music (not necessarily XXth century - even baroque, or renaissance music) thse issues become very problematic, if you want to produce good results. Even film music scores, have needs that demand specialized tools.

As a (wannabe) composer, I miss very much a tool that fuse these two easpects into a single package, but, as I said, the user base for somethig like this was never big enough to awake the interest of the manufacturers.

You can't imagine for how long am I asking Make Music (the builders of Finale) to include in the package something so simple as a piano rol editor with lines for MIDI continuous controller editing, velocities, tempi, etc. Up to now, they never did that.

lfm · Post by **lfm** » Fri Jul 24, 2015 2:41 pm

OK, thanks, much obliged for input.

I guess the needs are different when doing all composing from notation and when recording live in a daw and just want decent notation from that. Throw in a melody line and lyrics and you've got enough to register a song with a publisher.

Just know the basics of notation, and trying to learn more to choose tools that have some headroom regarding most things.

fmr · Post by **fmr** » Fri Jul 24, 2015 7:23 pm

lfm wrote:OK, thanks, much obliged for input.

I guess the needs are different when doing all composing from notation and when recording live in a daw and just want decent notation from that. Throw in a melody line and lyrics and you've got enough to register a song with a publisher.

Just know the basics of notation, and trying to learn more to choose tools that have some headroom regarding most things.

For what you want, Cubase and Logic will get you covered well.

EdgarRothermich · Post by **EdgarRothermich** » Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:39 pm

Two things,

1) An app is only as good as the users (who needs to know how to use it)

2) If a DAW contains already professional notation tools (like Logic or Cubase), then you have to evaluate if the addition money you spend on a standalone notation app provides you with additional tools

kbaccki · Post by **kbaccki** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 3:04 am

fmr wrote:You can't imagine for how long am I asking Make Music (the builders of Finale) to include in the package something so simple as a piano rol editor with lines for MIDI continuous controller editing, velocities, tempi, etc. Up to now, they never did that.

Overture has some of that inline MIDI capability... http://sonicscores.com/products/overture/

softska · Post by **softska** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 3:48 am

Probably Digital Performer or Cubase. Pro Tools has something from Sibelius built-in, but I never used it.

Logic implementation is, sorry to say, awful. It isn't too bad if you just need to print something quick and dirty from MIDI, but if you work the other way (notation to midi) it is a sad sad world. Logic 9 added couple tiny things, but it's hardly anything I would recommend to anybody.

To OP: It's all about layout control in notation. Look forward to what the ex-Sibelius team would do, but nothing compare to Finale and Sibelius in those regard currently (don't use their starter/student version so can't comment on those). If you want notation interpretation then it's a mixed bag vs what you can do in DAW

arkmabat · Post by **arkmabat** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 5:12 am

Finale had terrible vst support last time I checked. But it does support it actually.

lfm · Post by **lfm** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 5:25 am

softska wrote: To OP: It's all about layout control in notation. Look forward to what the ex-Sibelius team would do, but nothing compare to Finale and Sibelius in those regard currently (don't use their starter/student version so can't comment on those). If you want notation interpretation then it's a mixed bag vs what you can do in DAW

Thanks.
I guess what I learned is that top model notation software is more like a typesetting tool, if you want to print proper full song books, partiture for full orchestra, or something. And you have more overlap of what is in daws regarding audio features.

If you don't need all that typesetting features entry level notation is ok, or even daw stuff. You've got all audio handling in daws, so no need to pay for that once again.

More like ordinary word processing software level, compared to full featured typesetting stuff.

Daws with score editing as good or better than full version Sibelius or Finale?