Orch tutorials?

[maja]

I learn about ostinatos, about legato, divisi, theory and everything, now I need some tutorial about epic music on how to use it all together in track.
I would like tutorials that explain about placing notes drums.
I think YouTube lacks that kind of tutorial that explains how you make space for drums and arpegio or ostinato staccato, pizicato, staccatisimo strings , you know, all around tutorial about placing different instruments in piano roll.
Panning is ok, I get used to that to somehow balance my track, but I really lack knowledge when it comes to drums, I firstly make everything without drums, that sounding good, but when I'm about to add haevocity damage drums, project sam true strike or any, I don't know to built a rhytm that will support my ostinato short strings and also long ones.
Anyone who knows about such tutorial more about drums for orchestra music, please post it?
If you don't have about drums for orchestral music, post about orchestral music itself, could be usefull too.

[MadBrain]

There's the online version of the Principles of Orchestration by Rimsky-Korsakov:
http://www.garritan.com/principles-of-o ... /lesson-1/
(it doesn't say too much about drums, but that's expected for something coming out of the 19th century)

Unfortunately, online information about composition is scarce and wikipedia information about this is kindof a mess.

[jancivil]

I don't think anybody is going to manage getting you up to speed on how to compose in a comments box on an internet forum. So you lack the knowledge? Here's what people do. They study. This expecting a youtube tutorial, tips and tricks ("all around tutorial about placing different instruments in piano roll") to be sufficient absent the usual thorough study is misguided.

Did you ever look at a score for a clue here? What compositions in the literature got you off as to the percussion work? What symphonic concerts have you attended? What happened, what struck you about percussion here? What notes, even mental notes, did you take, what are your observations. What experience did you have in orchestra music before you got a computer and bought samples libraries? 'about placing instruments in piano roll' appears to signal this is your whole basis & the answer will be 'none'.

In which case, what do you expect? Do you not have the idea in mind for your ostinato? Are you not hearing something in your head, a notion of the sound? What composing did you do before you experienced the piano roll in a DAW? Who is supposed to have the idea for you when you don't.

[deastman]

The thing is that YouTube and online tutorials in general are actually a pretty significant innovation in the field of education. If you need a quick tip, or an introduction to a piece of software, online video is a great solution. The problem is that people have come to expect that any topic can be taught and mastered simply by watching a video. Want to become an astrophysicist? A brain surgeon? A classical orchestral composer? Try YouTube!

[jancivil]

[jancivil]

- but here's teh famous drum ostinato:

[Kinh]

I don't think anybody is going to manage getting you up to speed on how to compose in a comments box on an internet forum. So you lack the knowledge? Here's what people do. They study. This expecting a youtube tutorial, tips and tricks ("all around tutorial about placing different instruments in piano roll") to be sufficient absent the usual thorough study is misguided.

Did you ever look at a score for a clue here? What compositions in the literature got you off as to the percussion work? What symphonic concerts have you attended? What happened, what struck you about percussion here? What notes, even mental notes, did you take, what are your observations. What experience did you have in orchestra music before you got a computer and bought samples libraries? 'about placing instruments in piano roll' appears to signal this is your whole basis & the answer will be 'none'.

In which case, what do you expect? Do you not have the idea in mind for your ostinato? Are you not hearing something in your head, a notion of the sound? What composing did you do before you experienced the piano roll in a DAW? Who is supposed to have the idea for you when you don't.

You dont need to be patronizing and condescending. The guys asking for help not a bunch of rhetorical questions designed to intimidate.

[Kinh]

If you want to do orch percussion then its best just to just experiment with performance. Buy a drum machine and tap out rhythms of your own. Most of the Damage and Ethnic percussion stuff tends to accentuate deep toms and congas on the off-beats, the rest (high percussion) is just layering by performance/feel over a loop.

[jancivil]

In fact, what was asked for was "now I need some tutorial about epic music on how to use it all together in track. I would like tutorials that explain about placing notes drums."

I'm sure that is not any way to proceed. So, "rhetorical questions" you say? The statement is, the usual interest in and experience with orchestra music a person that has set out to compose orchestral music will surely have (I would think) is not going to be leapt over by someone's experience of youtube tips and tricks. I would say that the interest in and experience with orchestra is a prerequisite, absolutely a prerequisite.

"Patronizing", I don't think so. I think this is treating someone like an adult. I think the patronizing thing to do is ignore the glaring problem this 'question' presents and glibly advising, say, a glance at Rimsky's book, which is going to do exactly nothing. I gave my reply some thought. I think the person with this type of approach needs to see it. Or not, hey. It's a brave new world.

[jancivil]

Buy a drum machine and tap out rhythms of your own.

That's super, but you're implying the same lack of interest I did. Or worse, this assumes the person has never so much as tapped rhythms out. You may be right.

The actual thread title is "Orch tutorials". I don't see anything that addresses "Orch", or compositional tutelage particularly. Or the golden Youtube post that will sort it all out. This can be a thread about anything, though, no skin off me.

[deastman]

- but here's teh famous drum ostinato:

http://www.radiolab.org/story/217340-unraveling-bolero

[Musicologo]

Actually there ARE some interesting tutorials in youtube on Orch music. It's a brave new world!

This is a condensed version:



And this is a larger version with 6 episodes:



J Jay Berthume channel is a gem, truly.

I think SEEING and listening to someone orchestrating something, and following their steps is a marvelous way to learn about orchestration. And, of course, percussion is also mentioned. I must say I've seen all of this guy's videos and I've learnt a LOT. Much more than reading from books alone. Because, I mean, yeah reading books and listening to CDs and following orchestral scores gives you a lot of valuable information; but a youtube video with someone DOING it is much more engaging. I confess I would love to have plenty more videos like these where composers and songwriters explain their processes on the fly and we can see their development and flow.

Now, this will be useless if after watching it one is not able to try it out. So I recommend that after getting some ideas one should apply them immediatly to see how they work. Ideally one should combine information from the videos, with scores similar to the ones one is trying to emulate, and THEN go to reference books (Samuel Adler perhaps?) to check out if things apply. Then I'd say the only thing missing is personal feedback, which can also be obtained in forums and fb groups... so, I'd say the traditional role of tutor or professor is being slowly replaced by MOOCs and youtube videos...

[jancivil]

When I was in the orchestration class at UNCC, I got a job with the local symphonic orchestra. Setting up and driving. I and this other girl were roadies, essentially, the orchestra were homeless, rented this venue and the next venue for a rehearsal space. The point I wanted to make was that an abiding interest in the orchestra is obviously prerequisite to a full understanding. Oh, another thing in that course was, the approach to learning the orchestration in a piece was through learning to conduct it. Intimidating!

yeah reading books and listening to CDs and following orchestral scores gives you a lot of valuable information; but a youtube video with someone DOING it is much more engaging

Actually I have looked at the "non-Hans Zimmer" one. He's clearly very accomplished in orchestration, and I can see how as a video it's 'engaging'. I also noticed:

Garrett T. Beelow - Composer 6 months ago
This video is awesome. How do you approach writing a piece like this? It all seems like so much to consider.

So, apparently one can come away having been engaged, impressed, entertained even, but not having been shown how to get here, to where Mr. JJ has arrived, particularly. I bet he went to school a bit. And so one is going to glean as such from this kind of thing according to how much one brings to it. This video presupposes a fair amount of knowledge coming in. And the deeper interest.

I'd say the traditional role of tutor or professor is being slowly replaced by MOOCs and youtube videos...

But do you actually believe the future professors will derive via University of Youtube? You actually state

Ideally one should combine information from the videos, with scores similar to the ones one is trying to emulate, and THEN go to reference books...

Hmmm, I think that's less than ideal. I think ideally one will more or less have absorbed the reference material as primary. I do agree that a walk-through with 'the horns handling the triadic material'; the 'trumpets do a little fanfare' In Context is very enlightening.

But the OP strikes me, and I'm sure I'm not alone, as someone coming to 'orchestra' without the prerequisite interest, or particular experience composing (more of 'what do the producers do here?'). So I went all 'get off my lawn' with it.

[Musicologo]

Jancivil,
I believe the future professors and classical musicians will, obviously, continue to pursue formal education within universities and academia and have experience with real musicians.

But those are just a small minority of the people actually making (or aiming at) making orchestral-sound-like music nowadays. Most of the people are amateur video game or library composers within their bedrooms using sample libraries. And for that specific kind of task most of them will never go to university or even have the opportunity or money to use real orchestras. Their aim is solely to make music that sounds good and fairly resembles the cliché orchestral sound.

For those purposes having some models to emulate and some background to slowly build knowledge is enough. And I think the first steps are usually the most difficult ones, and I'm talking by my own experience. Being "engaged" and slowly learning information from here and there can help to even realize what "orchestration" is and how it works and what it involves!...
So, I'm thinking more as way to "break the ice", a model of education much more alike with the "pop and rock" route from the 60's.. you start by emulating records in your beedroom and then perhaps join a band.. well, in this case you can never "join an orchestra", so probably "join someone who is passionately doing orchestral music and communicating their experience in a funny, clever way, and see how they do it and copy it..." and then slowly understand why and how they do what they do...

If after a while one is sufficiently "engaged" they can probably pursue a more formal course like Thinkspace...

http://thinkspaceeducation.com/co/

Or even read a book like

http://www.amazon.com/Acoustic-MIDI-Orc ... 0240520211

There are countless ways to get there, but, again, I'm assuming the point is not to write "orchestral music" but "computer music that resembles the orchestral sound exclusively using samples"...

[jancivil]

Those are all good arguments in themselves. However - "computer music that resembles the orchestral sound exclusively using samples" because they aren't likely to have access to an orchestra... Well, I'm not likely to myself, I heard one or two things because my best friend was a composition major and presented it to his class as his new direction, and they recorded it. However, you know when I wrote a guitar piece I could play it. It's about the rubber meeting the road. It's going to resemble the sound to the degree you know the sound. My music today is 95 or somewhat percent virtual.

"I think the first steps are usually the most difficult ones" - So the first step here is to expect to reach the moon? Quite a bound. I thought to include a little reality. Of course the result is not going to be something we care anything about, and why not just leave it be. ('Orchestra' purely via samples is HARD TO DO. Most of the time I think it's fail, and everyone knows something's wrong.) But I don't think of it like that, I don't take it as me addressing merely the one person in the OP. And you directing folks to those two vids is good because other people will bring more to it. Here's my POV: I don't think the world of music situation is improved through youtube etc and quicker gratification. (I studied orchestration ~2 decades prior to the internet. How did people ever manage? Actually it was such an intimidating situation it would weed out a lot of people. As elitist as that looks, I think it's true that the musician worth hearing has that abiding interest first. Then it means I have to acclimate myself to more music that isn't.)

- "break the ice", I don't have a problem really. I retain my same view as to the non-question in the OP, though. You have described in detail the dumbing down of music that's happening and a kind of HG Wells' The Time Machine gradual weakening. Resistance is futile, I get it.