KVR Audio

lourenner · Post by **lourenner** » Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:11 am

I am familiar with most of the sequencing software available, though it's been a while since I've worked in Pro Tools, Cubase, Sonar, Digital Performer. Currently I work in Reaper. I'm seeking a platform that will allow something like the following: a session with individual MIDI items each with their own tempo and time signature, which of course can sound simultaneously. Reaper actually allows this, it's kind of a secret setting for each Midi item, but it appears the the ruler/grid in the Midi roll editor stays synced to the project time signature leaving a lot of tireless and finicky mousework to line up note entries. I just did a search/find on "time signature" in Cubase's manual and though manuals are hardly the end-all of truth seeking, it appears time signatures in that application are applied across the board to all tracks without deviation.

It may be that just developing my own handicapped workflow in Reaper will be the best option. I've also come across the good suggestion of converting Midi tracks to audio as needed, as opposed to trying to continue working in a polytempic environment. These programs seem to be based at their core root in a primary time signature and tempo and circumventing that leads to problems. Or, I could be wrong and Pro Tools or other programs have completely implemented individual tempo and time signature settings per track or clip. That's why I am writing, to see if anyone has any experience or suggestions.

Basically, I'm looking for something that allows a more free time polyrhythmic/polytempic approach more akin to score editing in a way.

There is always Cycling 74 Max, which may or may not be intuitive, perhaps wildly daunting, no experience there.

Alex

woggle · Post by **woggle** » Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:24 am

I wish - hopefully someone will have a sold suggestion. Usine might make this possible but is not really setup as a DAW. Loomer has Epoch coming out someday (hopefully in a year or two) and that should plug in to Reaper and give you what you want in midi. Certainly I hope it does. Most DAW software is incredibly mainstreamed and won't even allow common tuplets like 5:3 or 7:5 Reaper has been pretty good and is used by everyone I know coming from a contemporary classical tradition eg tradition of composers like Xenakis or Ferneyhough

lourenner · Post by **lourenner** » Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:45 am

Thanks for the reply. I'll probably develop my own method within Reaper. If they could fix that grid issue they'd have possibly the only polytempic mainstream sequencer on the market.

Yes, the future will be less song structure and more sound exploration, so something will come along eventually, when someone with enough time and interest programs something. MIDI specs probably could use upgrading while that future savant is at it, so alternative tunings can be modified on the fly.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Thu Oct 29, 2015 10:00 am

I'm interested in this somewhat myself. I haven't updated Finale since I think 2006, I abandoned it, not feasible money-wise for me, I'm going to have to rework it as piano roll MIDI in any case, so I want it integrated into a DAW-type sequencer and not be a division of tasks. Cubase will do 5:3 or anything defined as a ratio, but it just told me 'can't handle nested tuplets'. I was sure it did, but I tried a few times and that was that afaict. I would more typically perform the thing myself but I'd like to see what I have. I discovered the other day that in one spot I had done 5 in the time of 3 and a half. i meant the 5: ... but wait, what? I used to train hard for this. And I've followed L Shankar closely, whose time is out of this world. I did a lot of this kind of thing pencil on paper, but in the DAW medium I never quite got around to those type of ideas, in favor of improvisational flow. There is this one guy with a program that will do anything, but it's more for analysis than creation. I can't rightly recall if it would connect to soft instruments. He posted here I think twice. I'll have to dig into my youtube likes to identify it.

kelldammit · Post by **kelldammit** » Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:53 pm

hmmm, you should be able to change the time sig for the project, without altering the already-recorded midi (perhaps locking it, and verifying that locking will ignore time sig/tempo, or telling it simply to "not follow" if the project time sig is changed).
i'm pretty sure i've done similar at some point, but i don't remember what i was using?

lourenner · Post by **lourenner** » Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:41 am

a good samaritan on the Cockos forum pointed out how to change the timebase of the Midi roll editor you're currently in to sync with the override time signature. (view > piano roll timebase > source beats). so, yes programming each Midi item with its own BPM and time signature is possible, creating a wealth of possibilities.

jancivil, yes freely playing yields more intuitive response; my timing far from impeccable however. i have worked out brief sketches for new ways of graphically representing a Midi editor, but i'm not at that level of programming. it is needed. i mean, it is based on the physical rolls they used to feed player pianos! lol. thanks for the l. shankar mention.

kelld, i started thinking down that path... even setting the project time sig to something that would serve as a sort of common denominator. however the solution mentioned removes the dilemma.

woggle, thanks for the loomer mention.

woggle · Post by **woggle** » Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:23 am

lourenner wrote:a good samaritan on the Cockos forum pointed out how to change the timebase of the Midi roll editor you're currently in to sync with the override time signature. (view > piano roll timebase > source beats). so, yes programming each Midi item with its own BPM and time signature is possible, creating a wealth of possibilities.

jancivil, yes freely playing yields more intuitive response; my timing far from impeccable however. i have worked out brief sketches for new ways of graphically representing a Midi editor, but i'm not at that level of programming. it is needed. i mean, it is based on the physical rolls they used to feed player pianos! lol. thanks for the l. shankar mention.

kelld, i started thinking down that path... even setting the project time sig to something that would serve as a sort of common denominator. however the solution mentioned removes the dilemma.

woggle, thanks for the loomer mention.

In reaper you can also right click on a midi item - that brings up media item properties and if you go down the bottom you can set the take media source properties to whatever bpm you want. So you can have any midi item with any bpm. I've tended to do that by stretching. I don't use time sigs but it lookls like you can vary that as well. Been quite a while since I used Reaper for anything other than editing files generated elsewhere so I had forgotten how flexible it is.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:16 pm

Apparently MuseScore will do nested tuplets. I have a MuseScore file of Zappa's Black Page #1 which contains some, and it appears was created in MuseScore. I'm trying to figure out how it's done.* But there are numerous online references to bugs in its implementation and I see they added support for it @ v. 0.9.6. (I'm not likely to deal in more than one actual time sig at one time, this is how I think of that idea.) It's freeware, anyway. But working with it in Cubase in particular after making the .mid file means losing the display of it, so I would absolutely finish the idea in MuseScore before making it seem live in Cubase. Cubase a sore disappointment in this regard. Though, it looks like you can make it properly display simple tuplets you've done by hand, which I did not see before. The .mid MuseScore outputs for BP#1 works/is correct, however.

(*: since there is no menu for 'nested tuplets', I imagine it's done the same way as the first level, these tuplets are simply the basis for the same operation.)

And here's something in Logic I has to assume would work (have yet to test, but): write, say, 5 quarter notes. Select these and do Functions->Transform and select Double Speed. The dialog here provides other numbers, eg., x5. Now we've 5 in the time of 4 16ths or one quarter. You can make a groove template of that. So work on top of that and do the next level etc.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:38 am

Yeah, this method does work in Logic.

musiclover55547 · Post by **musiclover55547** » Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:31 pm

This method is part of Logic's core; it's my primary DAW.

However, I will concede that an unmentioned player supposedly has fantastic capabilities in this area: DP (Digital Performer.)

Until recently, it was a Mac-only platform (just as Cubase formerly was PC only.) If you are on a PC, I am not sure its strength on the WIN side, but for Mac users, this DAW evidently is an oft-forgotten gem by the EDM masses. It has upped its ante on this end too, though it is quite a bit more pricey than Logic (well-- everything is, Cubase included.)

I realize that a Mac could be construed as the "Dongle" for using LPX (as many Cubasers cite,) but DP has traditionally been a Mac play and is roughly $450+ USD.

memyselfandus · Post by **memyselfandus** » Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:48 pm

musiclover55547 wrote:This method is part of Logic's core; it's my primary DAW.

However, I will concede that an unmentioned player supposedly has fantastic capabilities in this area: DP (Digital Performer.)

Until recently, it was a Mac-only platform (just as Cubase formerly was PC only.) If you are on a PC, I am not sure its strength on the WIN side, but for Mac users, this DAW evidently is an oft-forgotten gem by the EDM masses. It has upped its ante on this end too, though it is quite a bit more pricey than Logic (well-- everything is, Cubase included.)

I realize that a Mac could be construed as the "Dongle" for using LPX (as many Cubasers cite,) but DP has traditionally been a Mac play and is roughly $450+ USD.

anyone have some information on the capabilities DP has? regarding multiple time signatures?

musiclover55547 · Post by **musiclover55547** » Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:04 pm

Interestingly, from the Steinberg forum:

https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=83458

Re: Need metronome to click in 2 with 6/8 time signature

Postby NYFC » Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:25 pm
I don't think setting the project time signature to 6/8 will set the click to dotted quarters. I've never been able to get that result. I would LOVE to be wrong about this!

IMO Steinberg needs to take a good look at the way Digital Performer handles clicks and time signatures. Setting up clicks for compound meters is a breeze and you can even have the click change to subdivisions wherever you like or even be tacet for a bar or part of a bar. Another thing I hate about working with compound meters in Cubase is the fact that you can't set the tempo to the beat. If you want a tempo of dotted quarter=72BPM, you need to set the tempo to 108BPM. This is rather silly. In Digital Performer you choose the value of your beat and set the tempo accordingly. Even so, I still work mainly in Cubase, but I would sure like to have the whole Tempo/Metronome area upgraded.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Oct 31, 2015 11:07 pm

Oddly, I just found that Cubase can give you the 2 click for 6/8. In Metronome Setup: Use Count Base specifying 3/8 while the 'Use Time Sign....' in that dialog is normal. I don't know why that works like that, but the clicks are every 3 8ths ie., 2 clicks in the time of 6/8 while Use Project Count gives 6 clicks for 6/8. Cubase 5, tho, maybe they fixed it since.

However the Click Outputs dialog will provide accents via the Low and High velocity or level and pitch or Hi/Lo settings.

kelldammit · Post by **kelldammit** » Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:29 pm

musiclover55547 wrote:This method is part of Logic's core; it's my primary DAW.
However, I will concede that an unmentioned player supposedly has fantastic capabilities in this area: DP (Digital Performer.)
Until recently, it was a Mac-only platform (just as Cubase formerly was PC only.)

Cubase was actually atari, then mac, then pc. It's a long sordid story, involving digidesign (who themselves were mac only till y2k-ish), strangely enough. As a result, though, there was no Cubase VST v4 for PC...they skipped straight from v3 to v5, for version number parity between mac (which was a version number ahead) and pc.

If you are on a PC, I am not sure its strength on the WIN side, but for Mac users, this DAW evidently is an oft-forgotten gem by the EDM masses.

i think it's because there are just easier ways to skin the cat for that purpose. DP's focus on more film-scoring type applications tend to make for a pretty arcane feature set if all you want to do is crank out a midi/audio loop-based 4/4 dancefloor banger.
For instance, two things tend to drive new users nuts: no midi clips (DP is a linear, inline sequencer throughout), and the lack of integrated midi/instrument tracks (a steinberg convention that pretty much everyone else has adopted). The latter seems like an unnecessarily messy, archaic approach if you're dealing with single-song per project stuff. However, it's a godsend if you're using a huge load of instruments for several separate pieces that all reference one video file.

It has upped its ante on this end too, though it is quite a bit more pricey than Logic (well-- everything is, Cubase included.)

True, that. Logic/Cubase/DP all used to be around the same pricepoint. Then Apple bought logic, bundled in all of the previously "for sale separately" instruments, and the price shot up to $1k for v7. v8 pricing went down by half, and then v9 by a little more than half again, to the current pricing model. Beyond the initial buy-in, though, they're all pretty much the same cost for major version upgrades.

memyselfandus wrote: anyone have some information on the capabilities DP has? regarding multiple time signatures?

If there's something specific you want me to try, i'd be happy to. Just let me know

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sun Nov 01, 2015 8:49 pm

I did one simple google search, 'time signatures digital performer' and didn't hit on much. This thread was on pg. 1 in fact. So I think 'multiple tempos and time signatures' indicates more than one at one time. I've seen it cited here, something that did one or the other if not both, but it wasn't a prominent product or I can't recall.

daw for midi sequencing with multiple tempos and time signatures