KVR Audio

blue monk · Post by **blue monk** » Wed Dec 16, 2015 11:07 pm

Hi,

I am not new to making music with computers. However what I am looking for in a DAW now are not mere features, but it is about how quickly I can do the things I want.

My platform is Mac OS X (10.9 at the moment, but I can upgrade with my Mac).

I have previously worked with Cubase on Atari, FruityLoops on PC, then Logic 4.5 on PC, Cubase SX 1 or SX 2 on PC, then Logic 8.

Important for me:

Changing swing factors for any track or part separately, ideally live (so it I can do that with a knob, maybe automate it).

For stereo tracks, I would like to have real panning for each channel (Cubase has this as an option).
In Logic this requires the direction mixer plug-in. It works, but I hate that a lot.

I would like to be able to use a hardware controller with knobs to program soft synths and record automation. In order to do this efficiently, it would be a big plus if the DAW would allow to assign knobs very quickly (to any plug-in- or track-parameter).

I would like to change the quantize grid easily (or at all). I want to try grids of 5, 7, 9, ... equal steps per bar, as well as loading quantization files from MPC etc. The latter is probably no issue in any DAW, but 5, 7, 9, ... steps? Again, it definitely matters, how fast this is. I am OK having to set it up once, but if it costs a lot of work any time I want to use a non-standard quantization grid, that would make me unhappy.

VST or AU support (= no ProTools).

I don't want to use Windows on my Mac (= no FL Studio, may change in the future)

Ideally, I would like to have a Ø function to flip the phase on any mixer channel.
I would be willing to use a plug-in for this, but it would be a bonus.

I am not adding stability, because that would reduce the choices too much, as sad as this may be

Regnas · Post by **Regnas** » Thu Dec 17, 2015 12:59 am

Try Bitwig.

blue monk · Post by **blue monk** » Thu Dec 17, 2015 1:11 am

Regnas wrote:Try Bitwig.

I got a NFR license for Bitwig. It does not have panning for stereo channels and the developers do not want to implement it. Bitwig Studio had been my big hope. Now I have to look somewhere else, or have to accept to use a plug-in for that feature. But I think it is unlikely that I am going to be using it. It still is rough around the edges (several annoyances).

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Thu Dec 17, 2015 2:08 am

blue monk wrote: Important for me:

Changing swing factors for any track or part separately, ideally live (so it I can do that with a knob, maybe automate it).

For stereo tracks, I would like to have real panning for each channel (Cubase has this as an option).
In Logic this requires the direction mixer plug-in. It works, but I hate that a lot.

I would like to be able to use a hardware controller with knobs to program soft synths and record automation. In order to do this efficiently, it would be a big plus if the DAW would allow to assign knobs very quickly (to any plug-in- or track-parameter).

I would like to change the quantize grid easily (or at all). I want to try grids of 5, 7, 9, ... equal steps per bar, as well as loading quantization files from MPC etc. The latter is probably no issue in any DAW, but 5, 7, 9, ... steps? Again, it definitely matters, how fast this is. I am OK having to set it up once, but if it costs a lot of work any time I want to use a non-standard quantization grid, that would make me unhappy.

Cubase will do swing % live (as well as quantize grid*, iterative strength, and delay. *: if a straight value, dotted, or triplet). These are incl. as options in Quick Control which can be learned by a physical controller.

Any whole number 'in the time of' any of the regular duplet values can be saved as a 'tuplet' preset in the main quantize setup. (However the live insert does only the above and as a basis for eg., swing, not as a subgrid.) So, it is a matter of setup once; now your presets appear in the Q menu in Key Editor. So 'Auto' works to force input to that setup, or you can overquantize any selection of extant notes. Manually you can make every bar a new setup; & parts are independent of each other. And if you like, you can freeze a set grid so as to do a next level of these operations.

xbitz · Post by **xbitz** » Thu Dec 17, 2015 8:47 am

there is swing plugin in http://thepiz.org/plugins/?p=pizmidi can be used in any DAW

endlessdog · Post by **endlessdog** » Thu Dec 17, 2015 12:48 pm

Sounds like you should give Studio One a try.

Has most of the functions you're asking for.

Is not stable on Mac though. But has autosave, and crash recovery.

If you can, try 2.6 as it seems less bugged than 3.

woodsdenis · Post by **woodsdenis** » Thu Dec 17, 2015 2:47 pm

Logic or Cubase on a Mac. At this point Cubase works best for me, I have tried below.....

Studio One not stable at all.Pity because it would be a contender.
Bitwig great concept and devs but really still in development.
Ableton. It is what it is , stable.

YMMV

next level · Post by **next level** » Thu Dec 17, 2015 5:50 pm

blue monk wrote:
Regnas wrote:Try Bitwig.
It does not have panning for stereo channels...

Huh?

Robmobius · Post by **Robmobius** » Thu Dec 17, 2015 5:54 pm

endlessdog wrote:
Is not stable on Mac though. But has autosave, and crash recovery.

Pretty stable on mine...

pottering · Post by **pottering** » Thu Dec 17, 2015 6:57 pm

Ableton Live can do swing and quantization in pretty unorthodox way, through a feature called "grooves".

It is basically lets you quantize the time and velocity to a pre-made simplified midi pattern ("groove").

https://www.soundonsound.com/sos/oct09/ ... h_1009.htm

It can be changed in real time.

blue monk · Post by **blue monk** » Thu Dec 17, 2015 7:24 pm

next level wrote:
blue monk wrote:
Regnas wrote:Try Bitwig.
It does not have panning for stereo channels...

Huh?

"Huh?" indeed. What you get is one knob, like in Logic and most other DAWs except Pro Tools.
This one knob controls the balance of left and right channel.
That is not the same as real panning. Cubase allows changing this in the preferences. You then have 2 panning controls for a stereo channel.
In Logic you have to use the direction mixer plug-in.

I find the lack of this basic function is unprofessional.

blue monk · Post by **blue monk** » Thu Dec 17, 2015 7:28 pm

pottering wrote:Ableton Live can do swing and quantization in pretty unorthodox way, through a feature called "grooves".

I am aware of that. PH Reason was first with this and it is a serious pro argument for Ableton.
Assigning knobs on hardware controllers also works well.
It lacks other features though (again, no panning for stereo channels), latency compensation does not work correctly, I bought a license of Live 8 and it crashed after 3 minutes, ..., so I am not 100% sold on Live at the moment.

Cyoon · Post by **Cyoon** » Thu Dec 17, 2015 7:43 pm

blue monk wrote:
"Huh?" indeed. What you get is one knob, like in Logic and most other DAWs except Pro Tools.
This one knob controls the balance of left and right channel.
That is not the same as real panning. Cubase allows changing this in the preferences. You then have 2 panning controls for a stereo channel.
In Logic you have to use the direction mixer plug-in.

I find the lack of this basic function is unprofessional.

thats also an issue for me, coming from cubase. But i got along with it, due to the other benefits in Bitwig.

You could also either create a native true pan device, save it with the track, and load that track each time you want a new one, or use a plugin like A1 Stereo, Flux or any of that kind..

ENV1 · Post by **ENV1** » Thu Dec 17, 2015 7:45 pm

blue monk wrote:That is not the same as real panning. Cubase allows changing this in the preferences.

REAPER too.

click to view animation

endlessdog · Post by **endlessdog** » Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:42 am

Robmobius wrote:
endlessdog wrote:
Is not stable on Mac though. But has autosave, and crash recovery.
Pretty stable on mine...

meh, i dunno, always got a lot of crashes at odd time on mine. Why i stopped using it. Way more unstable than Ableton or Logic.

S1 is the only Daw i know of aside from Bitwig that allows you to set quantise grid to quintuple or septuple divisions. Logic allows you to correct playing to these timings, but doesn't give a grid for editing.

S1 has very flexible groove and quantise, almost Logic level. Nondestructive, shows you the effect of the q in the edit window. Ableton is nonvisual. Only shows original recording, not the effect of the settings.

Im no S1 fanboy, but trying to make recommendations based on original question...

Which DAW?